Thursday, February 05, 2015

Prepare For MUCH Higher Greece School Taxes


Proposition 1 ~~ would carry an estimated annual tax bill increase of 5 cents/$1,000 of assessed value each year for 15 years.

Proposition 2 ~~ would carry an estimated annual tax bill increase of 12 cents/$1,000 of assessed value each year for 15 years. It is important to note that the approval of Proposition 2 is contingent on the approval of Proposition 1.

Proposition 3 ~~ Land purchase at a cost not to exceed $207,450. "CHUMP CHANGE!" Why are we even voting on this???

Shhhh!!! Don't tell anyone, but there's a special meeting planned about the proposed stadium.

Details HERE

The combined cost* of Prop 1 & 2 on the average Greece home assessed at $125,000 will be an additional $21.25/yr. NOT including any impact by a propsed budget increase to be voted on in May!

* Prop 2 can ONLY PASS if Prop 1 passes


Anonymous said...

Re: Prop 2 The "ad" makes is sound like thy only want those in favor of that prop to show up and ask questions. My or my!

Anonymous said...

So, $21.25/yr x 15yrs = $319.

SCATS said...

BTW, do you know what kind of impact that $319/yr. could have IF IT WERE SPENT ON CURRICULUM?

Charlie Hubbard said...

Scats; you deserve a lot of credit for the info you are supplying to this community on this upcoming vote.

Anonymous said...

Scats that $319 after 15 yrs not each y ear

Anonymous said...

If prop 3 is part of the CIP it has to voted on to get state 78% of cost..
The district has been after that parcel, theClark land for years with no luck as it is or was deed restricted by the former owner.the restriction was never sell to school district.

SCATS said...

To Charlie ~~ TYVM :)

To 2:02PM ~~ TY!! I stand corrected on my post from 2/06/2015 11:17 AM. I should have said: "BTW, do you know what kind of impact that $319 could have IF IT WERE SPENT ON CURRICULUM?"

To 2:15PM ~~ I haven't seen anything that shows it's connected other than it's on the same vote day & ballot. I do NOT understand WHY they are voting on such a small amount of money ($207,000). It's hardly chump change ,,, ask Oberg ;)

Anonymous said...


You're confusing me about no end point... thread head says 15yrs...

Proposition 1 ~~ would carry an estimated annual tax bill increase of 5 cents/$1,000 of assessed value each year for 15 years.

Help me!

Anonymous said...

The figures posted are solely the purchase and construction. What is the additional operational cost over the lifespan of this unnecessary proposal... Maintenance, Power, security, water, inflation, and etc., etc.???

Anonymous said...


Try this annual calc...

You say, "Proposition 2 ~~ would carry an estimated annual tax bill increase of 12 cents/$1,000 of assessed value each year for 15 years..."

GCSD Tot Taxable Val = $4.37B


$0.12/$1,000 x 4.37B = $524K per YEAR for 15yrs.

SCATS said...

To 5:21PM ~~ Actually, I messed up that posting. In fact, I've deleted it, because I misstated what I wanted to say. TY for the heads up.

To 5:24PM ~~ I saw some ridiculously LOW amount quoted, but I don't recall where or how much. It was so low, I gave it no weight for discussion.

To 5:41PM ~~ Doesn't the 4.73B already take the "per $1000" into account?

Anonymous said...

To: SCATS 8:25PM

Answer to question...

"To 5:41PM ~~ Doesn't the 4.73B take the "per $1000" into account?"...

is NO... but keeping track of decimal place can be tricky.

$0.12/thousand$ x $4.37 billion = $524,000.

$120/million$ x $4.37 billion = $524,000.


Anonymous said...

Prop 3 - to buy 4 acres... why... for what purpose/use?

george hubbard said...

To: 2:15PM

Re your post: "If prop 3 is part of the CIP it has to voted on to get state 78% of cost."...

I've not heard 78% related to land purchase, but it has been stated stadium 78.4% aidable.

However, at Jan 20 mtg discussion it was concluded GCSD aid would be 78.4% x 85%= 67%... not all NYS districts get same proportion.

CIP aidable at higher level.

Comments invited.

george hubbar said...


Are these numbers correct?

__Prop______Amt___Tax Rate___Yrs
__________________per $1,000



Stadium one quarter the amount... double the tax rate.

SCATS said...

To Geo H @8:47AM ~~ WHERE does the 85% figure come from??

To Geo H @9:36AM ~~ They appear to be so, though I did a double-take trying to understand your ending statement. I find that written discussion of numbers like these often leads to misunderstandings. I want to try to keep it as simple as possible.

SCATS said...

To 2:47AM ~~ They want approval to buy it now and hope to sell us on the idea of building a future bus wash and storage facility on the property. I do not understand how they expect to fund this purchase. I haven't seen it stated anywhere.

george hubbard said...

To: SCATS 11:35AM

I accept your point... simpler is better... when it’s correct!

There was an error in tax rate... corrected below.

________________per $1,000__



Joe M said...

The district has been pursuing that parcel since the mid 80's.for additional parking for buses .Some one mentioned before that because of long standing feud between the property owner and the district, it didn't happen.
That used to be the Clark farm. The dispute centered around an issue of the horses from the farm running loose on district property through inadequate fencing on the property line. Owner refused to fix fences and the district took action against the Clark's. This resulted in the owner directing his survivors to never sell the property to GCSD.
I don't know how long this had been a problem, but back in the Mid Sixties, when I became a member of the PD, I was involved in my share of early morning "'round ups " getting the horses corralled. No kidding! In fact, as a part of standard equipment in our cars, was a lariate in the trunk for use in other locations as well.Afterall, at that time , Greece was still largely a Farming community with only 30,000 residents.

Anonymous said...

If we want families to move into Greece we need to keep up with the other schools. Yes, sports matter to parents and before you say it the academics in Greece are fine, 2 kids graduated both at college with no problems. So, we do need the stadium in order to compete and draw students to our district. Students that can pass their classes and play sports. They keep the graduation numbers from diving which keeps more families away. It is simple. Quit whining and I have a novel idea why don't all of you complainers that don't have kids in the system move? Snowbirds too, I am sure there is some cheap city housing you would like just fine.

SCATS said...

To 5:12PM ~~ It takes some pretty big testicles to tell the people WHO BUILT GCSD to move! I'm planning on staying, complaining & embarassing the admin whenever I see fit to GET THE PROBLEMS FIXED!

I'm glad you had no problem PAYING COLLEGE TUITION FOR REMEDIAL ENGLISH & MATH CLASSES so your kids could "graduate with no problems." In my book that's wasted $$.


SCATS said...

BTW, why don't the SPORTS BOOSTERS & ATHLETES collect money ... hold a boot drive ... for their sports? Better yet, let them also install the playground equip for the younger kids to save some $$$ for the classroom ;)

Anonymous said...

Scats you are an idiot and I know you won't post it. My kids received very large scholarships. No remedial classes needed. Maybe you should take a class or two and educate yourself.

SCATS said...

To 8:02PM ~~ I usually don't post such comments, but in this case, YOU ARE CLEARLY out-of-touch!

Remedial math & English classes are REQUIRED of ALL freshman at many fine institutions of higher learning these days. Scholarships do not matter & will NOT get the kiddies off the hook. CHECK IT OUT ... I DARE YOU TO ;)

Anonymous said...

You are the one out of touch. Yes, two kids in college right now. Both actually received AP credits and were not required to take Freshman English, both took college calculus and stats and did very well. Now, do some kids have to take the remedial non-credit math and english? Yes some do, but not all. That being said are all our Greece students ready for college? No but it isn't the teachers fault....try the parents that whine about bad grades, don't oversee their work or attendance and expect their little babies to get an A for just looking good. Oh and this is a good one, parents that let their seniors take only 3 classes and leave early....bad habits, bad practice and those parents deserve what they get. Moral of the story, are all teachers great? no but there is no excuse for not requiring your kid to do the best they can in all situations. Isn't that what life is about after all??So, Greece does provide a good education and the stadium will retain and draw in families interested in sports. Like I said before to play sports you have to be passing your classes and on track to graduate. In the end it would be silly for taxpayers to vote it down.

Joe M said...

With regards to raising the money to facilitate this initiative, we didn't " pass the boot"as you suggested. Instead we reached out to community asking for donations to the cause. We were successful and raised over $100,000 . This amount was more that enough to pay for the lights as well as their installation.
The proposed site for the lights was the Olympia High field. I personally oppossed this location due to the density of the residental properties that would be impacted by this location and so advised. My position on the PD made me aware of the existance of the Heritage Drive neighborhood association and their strong influence in the town and I felt their resistance for this project would ultimately doom it. I was out voted and the plan
moved forward.
Because of my position in the PD, I was given the dubious task of meeting with leaders of this group and address their legitimate concerns which ranged from light pollution, traffic and parking on adjacent streets as well as trespassing issues from those going and coming from activities.Despite promises of no Parking signs and aggressive enforcement, increased police presence in those area, as well as the erection of ten foot perimeter fence, failed to get them on board. This fact as well as unexpected internal push back from the Athletic directors and coaches at the other high schools, the project failed and the monies raised were donated to various youth projects around the town.
As was the case then, I have always been a supporter of athletics as an integral part of the education process. I saw the impact on some troubled children when I served in the department Youth Division for 3 years. In many kids I dealt with, sports kept them in school. One in particular, who was kicked off the school football team for problems with the law, told me if he couldn't play, he was going to drop out. I decided to meet with school officials and got him reinstated on the condition he would be "paroled" to my custody and was accountable to me.
This turned out to be most rewarding to me. This boy stayed in school, graduated, went on to college and was drafted by the Buffalo Bills and played for two yrs.
This was a success story about a boy given a second chance and in so doing, turned his life around. If not for sports, his future would have been much different.

SCATS said...

To 10:56AM ~~ I am left to assume you are referring to Selke's "Light Up" campaign that got snuffed out at Apollo then at Olympia, correct? I remember BOE members saying the "plan" was a bunch of scribbled notes. I recall Selke telling the community he had $80,000+ ... then he upped the amount every time he opened his mouth. In looking over the history of this endeavor, let's not forget that EVERY HIGH SCHOOL IN GREECE WAS REVIEWED AND ELIMINATED AS A LOCATION ... for one reason, or another.

SCATS said...

To 9:30AM ~~ I'm not only "in touch" but I can read, write AND COMPREHEND. You have shown you can't. I said at MANY institutions ALL freshman are required ... That is different than saying all freshman everywhere. And where did I say anything about the remedial courses being "noncredit?" I DIDN'T! I didn't even imply that.

FYI, one of my own received 20+ credit hours as an entering freshman, and we found that MANY colleges/universities REQUIRED freshman to take remedial English & math FOR CREDIT, despite any AP classes/credits. In fact, RIT & Univ. of Roch BOTH required remedial classes when we went to visit. Do things change from year to year? I'm sure some do make changes, but I also know what parents tell me about CURRENT EXPERIENCES.

As for whining parents who don't oversee little Jimmy's calculus homework, WHO ARE YOU KIDDING??? Why should a parent be required to know the math or science, etc. their kid is facing in a high school classroom? THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TEACHERS!

And as for parents who let their seniors take a minimum number of classes then leave for the day, guess what?? The Greece Board of Education PROMOTES THAT!!! After decimating the electives courses offered, one of their budget tightening strategies was to encourage HS seniors to show up for the required classes only, THEN LEAVE FOR THE DAY!!!

WTH were YOU when these decisions were made & reported right here on this BLOG? Watching football practice, I bet.

I won't be arguing this topic any more (because I am painfully aware that so many sports parents have NO CLUE about GCSD's operations), so hold it back folks.

Joe M said...

Scats allow me to make you aware of a study done in 2006 when I was on that board. The board asked our interim Superintendent, Dr Kehoe, how she got the lights when she was in Irondeqouit . She explained she made the lighted fields apart of a CIP and won overwhelming approval inspite of the efforts of Amelia Nugent and her tax watch dog group.
We asked her to do a feasibility study to determine a suitable location to place lights. After consulting with the buildings and ground dept. headed by Dick Dohr at the time. Shortly after, the consensus was that Greece Arcadia would be the best choice. The issue was dropped as she left a short time later.
As far as your claim that the board considered info from Selke as you describe , I have no recollection of the board reviewing anything in regards to that study other than my comments made as a result of being involved on that committee. Nothing speaks louder than personal knowledge of the subject at hand.

Anonymous said...

To: 9:30AM

Help me understand...

"In the end it would be silly for taxpayers to vote it down."
2/08/2015 9:30 AM

So it would be silly for taxpayers not to approve an $8.5M capital item where:

a. The state aid has not been stated in writing.

b. The local share of cost has not been stated in writing.

c. The stadium can not be used for early spring training because its shared.

d. Parking will be limited.

Please explain.

Anonymous said...

I didn't read your closing statement or I wouldn't have bothered to write a response . However your comment was not entirely correct. First,Apollo was never considereded and actually, Olympia was the only one as it was the districts choice.Secondly, the light fund was $104,000
before it was discontinued.Thirdly, based on the comments on this topic, it would appear that most favor the project with exception of the usual suspects, the Hubbard boys and Kackmiester
BTW It was these three plus one more that stuck the knife into CARE and killed it. The forth was Ann Miller who couldn't wait to embrace Roger Boily when he was elected to the board. In fact Charlie jumped the HMO reservation and joined the Boily bunch shifting the majority in the process. The result, StevevAchromovitch.
I predict the stadium bond vote will pass by a 2-1 margin. Joe

SCATS said...

To Joe @2:04 & 5:36PM ~~ OMG! Do you REALLY believe consideration for a lighted field only started AFTER your tenure on the Greece BOE began?? In reality, the whole thing had already been settled when Bob Mueller was still BOE Prez.!! It's YOUR memory that's failing here.

The Maiden Ln neighborhood group helped the Heritage Dr. neighbors to ensure the Apollo fields WERE NOT LIGHTED. Merely months later, the Greece BOE attempted to get a vote through to approve lights at Olympia HS. We're talking about YEARS BEFORE YOU RAN FOR BOE! We're talking about the timeframe when the TOPS Intnl Store & plaza were under construction by Mark IV!! In fact, much of the original CARE sponsored BOE remained along with Polly Roberts at the time that Apollo was discussed. And Selke had only some $80,000 and a bunch of handwritten notes at the time.

No more finger-pointing or arguining this point, Joe. You, sir, are confused or have forgotten ... if in fact you ever really knew the whole story.

To 2:49PM ~~ Expect to hear crickets chirping, as per usual when logical questions are asked. TY for bringing these topics up :)

Joe M said...

Your right, as much as I enjoy a good argument, it makes no sense arguing with a closed mind. Some people have a problem dealing with information from an informed source due to actual participation in the project.
As you pointed out, this subject was addressed prior to
2005. My first experience regarding lighted fields came in
The early 70's on the Selke committee. I admit I had no previous knowledge of earlier discussions on this issue prior to that.
My first involvement in town issues began in 1964 when I became a town police officer.Some of those issues involved the establishment of the first Neighborhood watch initiatives as well as the establishment of the Greece Police Athletic League, Inc in '73. My involvement in programs involving the youth of Greece is well documented. As such, I whole heartedly support this bond issue . In my opinion, it is a project that should have taken place long ago when you consider that many of the areas smaller school districts have had lighted field for years, some recently and one with two lighted fields for just two schools.
The residents of these areas appreciated the value of these fields as positive assets to promote a positive image of their towns and villages.Unfortunately, the counties largest town has no such venue.
That being said, and my last comment on this issue, I believe the majority of current Greece residents will recognize the value contained in this initiative and vote to approve this proposition and in so doing,, promote a positive image of the Town of Greece.

SCATS said...

To 10:47AM ~~ Well Joe, at least you didn't say that my FACTS were wrong. Of course, you couldn't because you already know (or should) that they are accurate! Believe it or not, YOU are not the only "informed" person on numerous GCSD/PD/Town of Greece topics.

As for resident appreciation in other towns, good for them! Greece is not "other towns" and I do not buy into the idea that we should have what everyone else has, just because ...

Also, you can "believe the majority of current Greece residents will recognize the value contained in this initiative and vote to approve this proposition" all you want. What everyone should KNOW is that a miniscule number of people will bother to show up at the polls, nothing even close to a "majority."

Greece will soon become known as the town where average folks can no longer afford the taxes, because we have "what all the other towns have ... just because."

Tom Kackmeister said...

I submitted the following to the D and C as a letter to the editor:

The Greece school district plans a special spending vote in March. They have
proposed a $35 million capital improvement spend and an $8.5 million stadium

1. The snow birds go south for Feb and March so the school district schedules a vote in March regarding capital spending and a new sports stadium. This is an
extra vote; there is also a budget vote in May.

2. On Feb 2. I received a post card announcing these votes. The post card told us how to get an absentee ballot. Of course the snow birds have already left
and of course the post office does not forward post cards. They are a clever

3. And now we learn the district schedules a "forum" to specifically discuss the
stadium proposal. And per D and C the reporting (2-9- 2015) the district is particularly interested in talking with the "youth sports community". And they "may" also answer questions about the $35 million capital project. On Feb 9 we
learn that forum meeting will be Feb 9.!

Do they think they can force these projects on the community by manipulating who will be able to vote? Maybe, but do they think they can do that and also get the
larger community to pass the operating budget in May? That might be a stretch.

I do not like being manipulate and I think there will be others with the same sentiment.

I hope the district has second thoughts and change the dates for the vote to coincide with the operating budget vote. They should make that change and
schedule community forums to discuss all spending proposals in April. If they respect the voters they may have better success on voting day.

Tom Kackmeister

Note re: M. M. McDermott's reporting: I would report the impact on taxes as follows: "The impact on local property taxes would be about ... However the
impact on state taxes has not be reported".
It seems to me that a reminder that state money is not free would be worthwhile.

Charlie Hubbard said...

I went to the informational meeting Mon. night looking for answers to 2 questions.
The cost of running this special vote is?
The annual cost of running this new stadium is?
The answers were ????? - they had no idea. To say this bothered me would be an understatement. Let me be clear the amount of $$ is NOT the issue. Does no one ask? It quickly became obvious that those responsible for it do not care. Sad.

Joe M said...

Fortunately, not everyone shares your stance on this project.For if they did and shared your position ,Greece ,would still remain the counties largest town with one glaring exception. The largest Second Class Town in the entire State.

SCATS said...

To Tom K ~~ Of course they KNOW they can (and do) manipulate the vote! They are very comfortable in their methods now too. They need a resounding NO to wake them (and us??) up!

To Charlie H ~~ From what I heard reported, barely anyone showed up. People are weather weary! Also, I hear they had NO ANSWERS about security needs, use of GPD, insurance costs, maintenance costs, etc.

Let's face it, this round of CIP projects (aside from the land purchase) is largely GCSD's "Santa Wish List." Those responsible only know, or care about what they want, like a child on Christmas morning.

To Joe M ~~ We're supposed to strive to be more like Mayberry, remember? Mayberry would NEVER EVER waste money on a project that would negatively impact the neighbors.

Anonymous said...

GCSD logic:

Declining enrollment... need more busses

Need more land to park more busses

Buy more land to park more busses?? Oh that’s right, new land is right next to new stadium.

Tell voters, its not important to vote because more land... and more busses won’t raise their taxes!!

SCATS said...

To 12:21PM ~~ Of course, what they don't tell voters can hurt even more!

Shouldn't we be closing more schools??

Anonymous said...

To 2/9/2015 11:34 AM: Thanks for pointing to the fact that Greece NY continues to propose additional short and long-term tax liabilities to it's residents. I am not aware of any meaningful tax reform on anyone's agenda - no surprise here! Fat Cats have no political or morale incentive to reel-in our "trophy" tax burden. We continue to be held hostage by excruciatingly high public sector obligations and inefficient use of tax revenue. Combined Property and School tax rate at over 4%, higher than even Pittsford's and the highest as a percentage of property value in the whole US of A!!
The town conveniently made it a priority to reassess thousands of parcels higher last year to off-set Cuomo's 2% tax cap. This will ultimately backfire as reserve funds are dwindling, tax cap is law and enraged tax payers will no longer be submissive to to this town's egregious tax burden.
If we are asking the taxpayers to fund millions of additional $$$ for stadiums, police stations and the like, as a minimum, there must be compensatory cuts elsewhere to even have me agree to any new capital expenditures! You may not need to worry about the snowbirds too much longer as fewer and fewer elect not to fly back to the tax capital of the north!

Anonymous said...

You forgot to mention that more and more never R able to make the flight back. That class of Greece snobirds are fast becoming a endangered group as there numbers. R less +less every year

SCATS said...

To 2:14PM ~~ I'm not worried that Greece will ever be suffering from a lack of seniors! The number of boomers here are fast replacing any losses.

What EVERYONE should be concerned with is whether or not seniors are financially able to remain living in communities like Greece, NY! We have the highest property taxes in the USA, the highest gas taxes in the contiguous USA ... and the list goes on & on & on ...

Anonymous said...

How about en masse... Greece Tax Payers stage our version of Boston in a "2015/2016 Greece Tea Party", and we all refuse to pay school and property taxes? What enforcement agency is empowered to act? Who puts a lien on every property? Who comes to wrest my property and evict me? If en masse we revolt, violently if necessary, does the National Guard retake an entire Town? At what cost? At what change? Consideration and rebuttals accepted.

Anonymous said...

There will always be seniors in this town. But those seniors with their roots based in the old Kodak mentality are moving on. They are being replaced by free thinking seniors who were not subjected to the Yellow Box brain washing of that group. That makes a huge difference in their thought process.

SCATS said...

To 1:38PM ~~ And where are these "free thinking seniors" you mention?? THEY ARE DOWN SOUTH UNTIL SPRING!!

I guarantee you that if GCSD sent out the stats showing a $20+/home tax increase (on average), BEFORE the budget even gets cooked, there will be an outpouring of old school thought!

Anonymous said...

The comparison to Mayberry is on the mark.when you used the word STRIVE in your response to a post you were wrong in as much as Greece and Mayberry share a common thread. They differ in only one way, size. Other than that Greece is mirror image of Mayberry So striving to be more like Mayberry is unnecessary as we are very much like Mayberry in many many ways. In fact their small town thinking was more positive and progressive than Greeceberry New York.

SCATS said...

To 2:03PM ~~ I used the word "strive" because we will NEVER be like Mayberry! My God, just look at our PD!

Anonymous said...

To 5:47 PM: I agree 110%. Although Greece will never admit the fact that the assessor's primary mandate is to keep assessments as high as possible (keep the confers full) - always error on the high side and have deaf ears to disgruntle residents. Remember, you are dealing with ruggedized front line soldiers, trained to confuse and discredit your judgement when they are challenged.
Worst yet, not only are we overburdened with the highest property tax rate/taxes, we are further victimized and insulted when slapped with over-assessed property values! I know for a fact that there are thousands of over-assessed properties - all legal thievery for Greece. The computer generated "Mass Appraisal" comparables is really a ponzi smoke and mirrors act - significantly unreliable regarding "individual market value" assessments.
Add backroom collusion in the mix, the home owner opens a response "No Change in Assessment". Greece remains purposely shielded by the ORPS system as they do not have to provide any data and/or reasoning for their decisions! Homeowners that have grieved their assessments know exactly what I am talking about........

SCATS said...

To 4:08PM ~~ You are 100% correct! TY for summarizing what many of us know so well!!

Anonymous said...

There is one very distinct way to continue to facilitate this town and county rip off . KEEP VOTING REPUBLICAN OR CONSERVATIVE. Remember, Maggie doesn't raise your taxes, the town assessor does it for her by raising your assessments . The county tax rate has been set at
$8.99per thousand for eternity. If your assessment goes up $10,000, well you do the math.
As for the town, the assessed value of properties in Greece is 4 Billion. In order to deliver present services, that figure must be maintained to avoid increases in town property taxes without cutting services.

SCATS said...

To 6:04PM ~~ You are correct, sadly ...