Monday, September 29, 2014

Reilich Says ...



Canal Ponds ~~  100 jobs are expected with a new photovoltaic manufacturing facility and it might  generate 400 additional jobs as other companies look to take advantage of the facility's resources.
"If that develops as anticipated I think we'll see a housing boom because people need a roof over their head."
Town-wide development ~~   about two dozen sites where new business or construction is in various stages of development.
"The commercial development is, for the most part, what pays the bills. They pay town taxes yet don't draw on very little, if any, town services."
West Ridge Road remains as the main commercial corridor in the town, but Reilich expects to see more growth in the Long Pond/Latta Road area.
"We're seeing areas that have maybe been stagnant in the past, like around the old Northgate Plaza (on Dewey Avenue) with Walmart opening there a couple of years ago. Now we're seeing the businesses all in that area really perk up and come to life with the new Dairy Queen that's there and Verizon, AT&T and all the activity that's occurring in that corridor."

(Excerpted from this D&C article)

Comments & questions raised by a BLOG reader:
  • Who owns buildings at Canal Ponds?
  • Who pays taxes on Canal Ponds? Specifically what Eastman Kodak Co. building is referred to in article (street address)?  
  • Who owns building now?  (References to buildings are always by who occupies vs who owns.)
  • Who paid taxes 2013?  
  • If facility is operated by State Univ. of NY College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering as part of federally-funded efforts to develop solar energy-related projects, who will pay taxes 2014, 2015 and after?

SCATS ~~ If commercial development pays the bills, why are we giving away COMIDA reductions and other tax abatements in our attempts to lure businesses? Don't these businesses make use of police, fire & other services to a greater extent than the average residence?

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

Scats. You ask a good question but the answer is NO. As various town Master Plans were developed in the past, an interesting statistic emerged. It was learned by comparisons of demands for service , that residential development out paced the commercial properties by a ratio of 2-1 in all phases of services provided by the town. For this reason, parcels in the undeveloped areas north and west of North Greece and Latta Rds were designated as reserved for commercial development. It was a good plan at the time but the town was unable to attract commercial development to those far flung locations with potential developers opting for a Ridge Rd. West locations instead.As a result, the plan was modified with R 1 development instead.
With the exception of the Ridge Rd corridor. And to some extent the revitalized Dewey Ave Corridor, Greece has become a large" bedroom community " with the vast majority of the 35,000 parcels overwhelmingly residential. At the 2-1 ratio, Relic makes a well documented legitimate argument regarding use of public services in Greece.

SCATS said...

To 3:13PM ~~ That argument seems illogical to me. For instance, a business may have security alarms that create frequent false alarms. Those false alarms still must be tended to. Businesses put out calls for shoplifting complaints and other such problems related to retail.

How often does the average family call for police or fire? How does that compare to the average fast food restaurant in Greece? Or the average stand alone retailer? I'd like to see the stats.

Anonymous said...

SCATS,

The important question is not "How often does the average family call for police or fire?" but "How often are police and fire called to family residences?". Viewed that way, most calls for police and fire are to residences. Cops mostly deal with people, specifically residents. And it's a good thing, but still, that is where the expense is.

SCATS said...

To 5:10PM ~~ Family ... resident ... whatever. IMHO, they are equal.

george hubbard said...

SCATS

1. Let’s concentrate on Mr. Reilich’s first sentence (the answer to #2 will always be fuzzy), “The commercial development is, for the most part, what pays the bills."

1a. Is this true?

1b. What are the revenue numbers (commercial vs non-commercial) for recent years, e.g. 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013?

2. Do we need to consider property tax revenues and sales tax revenues?

Anonymous said...

Scats Your thinking is again one dimensional . There are more costly town services than that of public safety. Granted that retail business frequently have need of poliice services due to the nature of their business which deals largely with the general public. As such incidents that you describe are bound to and do happen and require police action.
However, these same retailers do not require or use other service to some extent , the second most expensive service , public services provided by the Highway department and related services such as sewers etc. Since most are located on major Roadways like Ridge Rd Mt Read, Dewey Ave Latta Rd, winter plowing to keep these main arteries open is supported by residents in the form of local, county, and State taxes as well as them. Conversely , local residential plowing of the various subdivisions in the town demand the lions share of the public service budget.
The retail and commercial developments located on the major arteries are benifited by maintenence of these access roads. The maintenence of their properties such as plowing, parking lot maintenence and repair is done at their own expense. However,the town must maintain all roads in all sub divisions in terms of plowing ,pavement repair and sewer maintenence . Therefore, I believe it's fair to say that these facts lend themselves to the comments by Supervisor Reilich and the comment claiming a 2 to1 ratio between commercial and residential demands for town services.

SCATS said...

To 7:01AM ~~ No, my thinking is not one dimensional. Look at yourself: When you say retailers do not "require" other services, you forget important details like unplowed roads means the retailer has no employees showing up for work, no delivery of goods and most importantly, NO FOOT TRAFFIC.

And while the Town doesn't plow the parking lots, it certainly does plow and maintain the roads used by residents to reach those businesses. Latta Rd, Dewey Ave., Long Pond Rd. & Ridge Rd. West are great examples of roads that lead DIRECTLY to retailers parking lots.

Anonymous said...

Scats. Read my post again. I think I made that perfectly clear. Thanks for making my point
By the way West Ridge Rd is a State Highway and while Greece Plows it, the State reimburses the Town to plow and salt it. The same applies to Latta Rd and Dewey Ave , Rt 18, county roads , and reimbursed by the County.

george hubbard said...

SCATS

1. Whether businesses pay more in taxes than they receive in services is a moot point. Don’t they knowingly pay (maybe more, maybe less) in exchange for the opportunity to do business and make a profit?

2. The D&C article “What’s new in Greece” is all about ACTIVITIES.

3. Shouldn’t questions and debate be, 'what are the espected economic BENEFITS to Greece – lower taxes, lower prices, higher incomes, more jobs, etc'.

4. Furthermore, I understand the 100 job photovoltaic facility at 115 Canal Ponds is part of START UP New York - no property tax, no sales tax, and employees tax breaks.

4a. Can this be confirmed?

SCATS said...

To George ~~ Interesting ... I did a quick search and failed to find the words "Start-Up NY" associated with the Canal Ponds project. However, I did find that the project requirements for such a project as per Start-Up NY's website seemed fully aligned to the Canal Ponds development, and vice versa.

Anonymous said...

The biggest development mistake made by this town in terms of tax base and property taxing implications, occurred about 50 years ago when a tiny manufacturing company operating on Union St, in the city wanted to relocate to Greece by purchasing the vacant Odenbach property on Dewey Ave. The name
of that company at the time was Haloids . The town refused the request so they moved to Webster instead. They are now known as Xerox. As a result, Webster residents were the recipients of lower taxes instead of Greece. As for Greece,5o yrs later, we are still looking at that mess that still stands, undeveloped and not likely to be at anytime in the near future,
The thinking at the time , we got Kodak and we don't need more manufacturing jobs in Greece. Now Kodak is history along with about 30,000 Greece Jobs while Xerox is still thriving providing Webster jobs and lower property taxes, while Greece taxes went up when Kodak went down the tube along with good paying jobs.

Anonymous said...

12:16, 12:46, Not a start up NY tax break but a relocation from California.

Anonymous said...

For what its worth, sign on door at 115 Canal Landing says “CNSE MDF – College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering Manufacturing and Development Facility”. Google says its part of SUNY system.

Do they own it or lease it, I don’t know.

SCATS said...

To 10:26AM ~~ I don't give a dang who plows it! In the end, WE THE PEOPLE ARE PAYING FOR IT. Different pocket, same taxpayers.

To 2:47 & 2:49PM ~~ Yes, I'm aware of those facts. The info avail. is quite extensive. My understanding is they were to lease it, at least initially.

SCATS said...

For those who are interested, here's the Start-up NY website:
http://startup.ny.gov/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=StartUpNY

It details all of the wonderful perks of being in the program.

Here's some good info on the CNSE facility:

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e4e4eef0-636f-47fa-ac0c-cee457fe3cf5

Anonymous said...

I am glad this discussion has finally being talked about on this blog.
I wouldn't say that commercial development pays all the bills but it does pay a disproportional amount.
First, because commercial property is more valuable than residential they are assessed higher and pay a higher amount of property taxes per square foot of building space or acreage.
Second, they pay school taxes without the right or opportunity to vote on the school budget. It boarders on taxation without representation. They pay more in school taxes, proportionately, but are not using the school system.
Thirdly, retail businesses collect sales tax revenue for the State virtually for free at cost to the business. If a transaction is made using a credit card the business has to pay the 2-5% transaction fee for the sales tax portion returned to to the state at the full amount. In addition, businesses have to pay the sales tax on online purchases "use tax" because they file returns weekly, monthly or quarterly. Residents do not, they are supposed too but the businesses are easier to audit and collect the money from.
Lastly, you can say that businesses use town services, but I believe they are proportional to what residents pay, sewer is based on water consumption. Not many people are taking showers at work. Some are but most aren't.
If you don't agree with me look at the towns of Irondequoit and Webster. Irondquoit struggles with there budgets mostly because they have hit their saturation point with commercial development, plus the Medley Centre blunder. Webster, as previously talked about, has the tax influx of Xerox. Who would you rather be?

SCATS said...

To 4:38PM ~~ The conditions you describe are not solely a NY state issue. That's just how it is most places.

Again, without the customers who certainly do use the schools, these businesses would be nowhere! Not to mention, one would hope they get a payoff from the young who are educated and might eventually go to work for them. It's NOT the parasitic relationship you attempt to portray, but a symbiotic one.

As for online taxes and related, I can tell you that I pay sales tax right through the website for most retailers that deal with NY. More charge sales tax now than 5 yrs. ago. More will be 5 yrs. from now, if they aren't already. The onus is on THEM to do so. It's part of the cost of doing business. There's NOTHING "proportional" that I can see about a business that has several hundred customers come through in a day vs. a family of 4 in a residential area.

Attempting to compare the entrenched and ongoing dysfunction of conducting business in Greece to other towns is laughable, imho. Who you know matters ;)

Anonymous said...

Scats, I find it funny you say for a business, "It's cost of doing business" but for a resident you are "over taxed" and "unfairly represented". Like I stated, a business is not able to vote on the school budget like a resident does, do they not have the same right too? I understand that it is impossible for a business to do so, I just think there should be a better way.
As to your comment of "without the customers who certainly do use the schools, these businesses would be nowhere!" I could argue the opposite, without businesses to provide wages how would resident afford to live in the houses they do?
I also think your information of paying sales tax on most of your online transactions is false. A business only has to charge sales tax if they have a physical presence in the state the order is being delivered to. It is not up to them to decide if they are going to collect or pay the sales tax revenue to the state. It's the law and they can and will be put in jail if they don't.
I just feel there are to many people out there who believe that a business owner is "so lucky to own their own business" because they can write thing off! Like it's free government money they are spending. They still have to make the money to spend the money, which can be sometimes easier said then done!

SCATS said...

To 5:57PM ~~ Again, I disagree. I don't have time to go through point-by-point again, so I will leave it with this: You claim a business can't vote on a school budget. I say "poppycock!" The owner of that entity and every single employee CAN VOTE ON THEIR SCHOOL BUDGETS, if they so choose. If they opt to build a business away from the community whose schools they use, it's a CHOICE they made. Even the CEOs of Kodak & Xerox get to vote.

Anonymous said...

SCATS 5:30pm your last sentence was "who you know matters" I am not going to attack or support that statement because that does not benefit me however I would say that is how it is everywhere since the beginning of time. That by the way is not unique to politics. If your doctor is your neighbor chances are you get an appointment right away. If you invite your son's teacher over for dinner a couple times a month or their coach who is most likely to benefit from that? If you stand at a podium and insult the elected officials or your friendly and polite who do you think they would rather assist with their problem. Not you can say that is not the way it is suppose to work but let all be real and honest. Think of your own life in your world. This is the way things are it is human nature. Not do not confuse what I am saying, I am not implying if you are friendly then rules will be broken or illegal moves occur. What I am saying is treat people the way you would like to be treated and that will come back to you.

SCATS said...

To 7:51PM ~~ IF I were to buy what you're selling (which I am not) then I'd have to accept that merely by being a member of the WRONG POLITICAL PARTY I'm doomed to less than stellar "customer service" by the electeds. Sadly, that IS THE WAY IT IS IN GREECE! Thankfully, it is NOT THAT WAY in most other places!

When a member of the local political party that was in power at the time lived in the neighborhood, the streets around here were plowed & plowed & plowed & plowed some more. When driveways were damaged by road repairs made in Robach's neighborhood, EVERYONE got freshly paved aprons at the end of the project. Those things should NOT be happening and have NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING "FRIENDLY." It's part of the who you know, who you rub elbows with type corruption that defines our town.

BTW, I've received awards for treating people well ... just not politicians lol :D

Anonymous said...

To: 2:49pm

D&C article refers to, “…new photovoltaic manufacturing facility located in a former Eastman Kodak Co. building at Canal Ponds Business Park.” No doubt Kodak occupied building, but not sure if Kodak owned building or leased it.

I also see a building with IBM sign at east end of Canal Ponds. Looks mostly vacant – probably moved people to IBM splash at Cuomo sponsored Buffalo Billion. Who owns IBM building?

Anonymous said...

Scats I suggest you goggle COSTS OF COMMUNITY SERVICES. There you will find several studies that varify the comments and facts posted on this topic relative to the taxing implications of residential vs commercial development in communities such as Greece with regard to taxes collected and returns in terms of return in service requirements.

Anonymous said...

Scats I just did some research on the internet and ran across some interesting statistics relative to this conversation.
According to this study, the ratio of taxes collected to services provided were as follows.
For every $1.00 collected in taxes from residential development, between $1.15 and $1.50 in services were returned.
For every $1.00 collected from commercial development between $0.35 and $0.65 was returned in services.
Accordingly, I think it's fair to say that those who have argued this point, are backed up by factual statistics.
The 2-1 ratio mentioned earlier seems on the mark .

SCATS said...

To 7:36AM ~~ I'm not sure it's all as clean-cut as that, even if I were to accept that Greece "conformed" to any standard you might have found related to other communities reported online. For the record, I don't, because we've been subjected to too many SCANDALS, including a HUGE one involving our former assessor. Let's remember, nobody went back to redo assessments after that mess.

Also, what about all these properties that pay NO TAX or get reductions? Doesn't that just increase the figures on the RESIDENTIAL side of the equation, since WE are the ones who eat the differences?

Anonymous said...

Scats I'm no fan of Reilich. However since this thread was supposed to be about his claim, I thought it would be useful to do some research regarding what he said. As a result, his comments were backed up by what I learned.
The situations you mention are relevant. However, they can be more than offset by attracting more commercial development to the town in the right locations according to data derived from legitimate creditable studies that have been conducted and published.
My conclusion, his comments are supported by available data while yours are simply not.

SCATS said...

To 10:44AM ~~ It makes no sense for you to say that the situations I mention are relevant, then dismiss them and declare your statements worthy. Your data doesn't tell us what type developments need to be made in which locations. Lots of mystery in those "facts."

So all of these Dunkin' Donuts springing up on every corner are keeping my property taxes down? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Especially not inlight of the fact that so many residential properties are stagnating on the market because they aren't worth their assessments. SOMEWHERE something just isn't quite right.

Anonymous said...

Scats why is it you have a problem excepting facts supported by relevant data. Just once It would be refreshing for you to except the facts instead of putting your usual spin on them to deny that they just MAY know more than you on this particular topic and support your line of thinking as absolute.
Incidentally , comments on this thread so far do not support your personal beliefs yet you remain adamant and choose to ignore the obvious in this case.
As for myself, until I read those nationwide studies, I had no idea what the implications were between residential and commercial development . It was a learning experience In my case.what I did take away from these studies was that a proper blend of both types of development is essential In order for a community to fairly deal with taxing issues beneficial to all in that community.

SCATS said...

To 1:02PM ~~ Actually, I think I "excepted the facts" quite nicely lol

For the record, I'm not dismissing what you found online as it relates to OTHER communities. I'm just very, very skeptical about how anything "normal" or "usual" relates to Greece. There's always some backstory here.

Anonymous said...

If I read you correctly what you are basically telling us is that while the facts are accurate for the rest of the country, The Town of Greece is a stand alone community in this instance because of political and otherwise circumstances ,, they don't apply here. I find that rather laughable that you believe that Greece is the only municipality in this country that is plaqued with similar problems related to taxing and developmental issues ranging from political concerns and out right corruption.
It's really the name of the game all over this country and not just unique to our obscure little dot on the map.

SCATS said...

To 7:17PM ~~ I never said Greece was a stand alone community. THOSE are YOUR words, not mine. For the record (yet again), I seldom think in terms of all or nothing. People who use words like all, none, always, never, etc. are bound to be wrong.

BTW, we aren't an "obscure dot" on the map. We had intnl attention given to our bullied bus monitor, Auggie put us on the map with his many outrageous shenanigans & the Supreme Court even knows who/where we are now.

Anonymous said...

The implication was clear in your comments. All those incidents you talk about are long forgotten every place else except this blog. You mention several words in your comment . The one you left out was negative. That word and it's implications is the trade mark on this site as projected by you toward anything that takes place in Greece that that you don't like, which is most everything .In my book, that negative attitude makes you wrong on many issues that take place in Greece.

SCATS said...

To 7:27AM ~~ They are far from "long-forgotten". Try Googling info about the town or school district. The other day when I was attempting to find something about the Town govt on a TV station website, up popped Ms. Klein's infamous day of non-work. The Supreme Court case has barely had time for the print to dry. Greece has such a long history of scandals, I can almost predict when another is brewing. Speaking of which, it's mid-October and GCSD has been much too quiet. I'm sure there will be breaking news soon.

As for your book ... has ANYONE read it? This site has almost 1.25 MILLION pageviews, with almost 250,000 in the past year ;)

Anonymous said...

what book is the poster at 7:27 talking about

Anonymous said...

6:33. After reading the post, I think scats was referring to a figure of speech oven used in place of "in my opinion".

Anonymous said...

Scats bog administrator. I recently relocated to the Rochester area from Long Island. I discovered this site during an internet search six weeks ago.
I found this thread rather interesting due to some of the comments made about the existance of the Town of Greece in geographical terms as well as notoriety .
Would it surprise you that prior to moving to Monroe County.while living in Long Island, I never heard of Greece , NY. In fact, most residents of my former community , never heard of or knew
that the City of Rochester was in the state or where it was located.
Of the two incidents you mention as being singularlarly unique to the town of Greece, I have no knowledge of the the first example you sight. Probably because it may have taken place prior to my relocation to this area, However, the second. Incident involving the SCOTUS law suit and it's implication are known to me since I now live in the area .
For this reason involving my personal knowledge of your town prior to my moving here, unfortunately I tend to agree with some comments made here as to the relativity of Greece on a State and National level with exception of the SCOTUS case that will always be linked to your town because of its consequences.
That being said, concluding that Greece is a major player in this area would be fair but beyond that, it's just another town located in Upstate New York and easily located on Google maps.



SCATS said...

To 3:51PM ~~ Am I surprised you never heard of Greece, NY? Hell no. Lots of people are completely tuned out to the news of the day, week, or even month. That's how we end up with incompetent electeds like our current & former Supervisors and our current POTUS.

I'd like to know HOW YOU SURVEYED "most residents of my former community" to come up with your conclusions. Of course, you didn't!

By the way, your writing and misspelling style mimic that of another who likes to chime in frequently with disagreement on this site ;) lol

SCATS said...

To 3:51PM ~~ You might be surprised to know that many dozens of visitors from LI have traversed this website in the last 6 mo or so. The Live Tracker tells a much different story than you do.