Tuesday, December 17, 2013

Attempted Traffic Stop Results In Toddler's Death


"I was just wondering what at Wal-Mart is worth my son's life." ~~ The boy's father, Milton Figueroa

13WHAM : "Security at the Wal-Mart store on Dewey Avenue in Greece reported two people stole a shopping cart full of items.

Minutes later an officer spotted the described vehicle at the intersection of Dewey and West Ridge Road.

According to the Greece Police Chief, the officer tried to pull the car over but the suspects took off at a high rate of speed and started weaving through traffic."

SCATS ~~ I know GPD says they "didn't pursue" the suspects, but attempting to stop this vehicle had the SAME IMPACT! What's one more lawsuit?
 

51 comments:

Jeff said...

So, what's the other option? Instruct our police force not to attempt to pull over criminals because there just might be an tragic accident that results from the the criminals continued refusal to obey the law. That sounds like a great idea.

The Greece Police Officer did the correct thing here. Find a bad guy, try to apprehend them. If conditions change and it becomes too dangerous to continue, then re-evaluate.

If we stop trying to catch the bad guys, they will multiply. You have loudly complained about the increase in crime, which you attribute to the new Walmart. Now you complain when the police try and catch the perpetrators.

I say that we should chase all criminals and try to arrest them.

This accident can be blamed on one single person and one single decision. The thief and her choice to run from the police.

Anonymous said...

My first thought was about the lawsuit that surely will be filed against GPD. However, the officer I believe did the right thing in this case. He or she is not to blame for this. The speeding, reckless driver was at fault here not the police.

SCATS said...

To 6:41AM ~~ You are correct that I blamed the new Walmart with its revamped buses coming from south of 104 up Dewey Ave. But you forget, folks like you shrugged that notion off, adamantly stating there was "NO" increase in crime associated with that store ;) Have you changed your mind?

To 8:53AM ~~ There will be a lawsuit, regardless. If you were the parent of the dead toddler, who would you blame?

Anonymous said...

The answer is simple,The insurance company of the car that caused the wrongful death, not. Greece or Walmart
The cop was doing no less than the job he is paid to do.
Since the mission of any law enforcement agency is primarily two fold, PREVENTION AND APPREHENSION, and public safety,no fault should be attached to cop doing his job consistant with NYS Penal Law, CPL,Traffic Enforcement Law and Rules and regulation of the agency involved.
It would appear to me that already attaching blame to the GPD is totally out of line. Also apparent is that nothing short of having our PD packing it in and vanish, will satisfy some who post on this site.
If that were to happen, who would fill the void created by not having them to kick around anymore. Also the next time your you have property damaged or stolen from your property or person, who would you call to help in arresting those responsible and recovering your loses? The answer, your insurance company by way of a claim. One big problem here. All insurance companies require a POLICE REPORT be filed before they will accept your claim. Now what???

Anonymous said...

I was shocked to hear that the dead driver of the fleeing speeding car was a woman. At first I thought she was a passenger. Guess I was profiling. She had a 15 year old in the car with her. Allegedly they were shoplifting from walmart? Family shopping trip?
And why was a Greece police officer at the corner of dewey and ridge. Intermunicipal cooperation. The city line is about a mile north of there. Did he think the city cops were unable to apprehend?
BTW I will take the junk and broken pavement and disgusting conditions of the formerly almost vacant Northgate plaza over the rise of crime we have experienced with the walmart demographic.

Jeff said...

I will say that I am not surprised that a retail establishment has to deal with thieves who try try and steal the goods they have for sale. It is one of the unfortunate aspects of opening a retail store and one of the main reason goods are so expensive.
As far as crime surrounding the area which can bel "blamed" on Walmart and new bus routes, I am not nearly qualified or informed enough to say wether there has been an actual increase in crime and if any suggested increase can be attributed to folks coming from "south of 104". If that is the case, I'd love to see any evidence.
You, however, missed the important question. What is the other option? Should the police not attempt to apprehend criminals?

Anonymous said...

I think 6:41 has a good view of this matter. Police has to try to stop criminals leaving the crime scene but when it is obviously dangerous to pursue, they do not chase. The fault for the accident lies squarely with the escaping car.
Also, Scats, I don't think that all the increased crime comes from "south of 104" as you put it. That said, there is going to be more crime anytime you have an attractive target (no pun intended) like Walmart. Walmart's pay policies would not include a qualified security force. And I don;t think the Walmart greeter is going to prevent much petty theft.
At least the GPD has the license number and will be able to find this perp. Whoever it is, there's going to be a lot of trouble for the driver.

SCATS said...

Regarding crime near the new Walmart and the bus routes: It is pretty clear for anyone who watches the news and reads local police blotters that shoplifting keeps many cops busy dealing with our new store. Also, crimes reported in the area are becoming more serious ... holdups of innocent citizens on the sidewalks and in parking lots at weapon-point by folks who don't reside anywhere near the zip code affected. You can no longer walk out the local bank with $$ in your wallet without having to worry.

To 11:19AM ~~ You ask some excellent questions! Yet again, a Greece cop is involved in a serious situation outside the borders of Greece! Oddly, the first reports of this "accident" failed to mention the theft from Walmart and the attempt by a Greece cop to make "a traffic stop." Of course a traffic stop attempted on a get-away car has the same impact as a chase! It spooks the get-away driver into fleeing ASAP. No surprise there. No surprise either that we dust off Capt. Uhrmacher to do a media blitz attempting to downplay GPD's involvement/responsibility for the tragic outcome. It's become SOP in GPD.

To 1:50PM ~~ You must have missed the very public, highly touted talks Walmart's security folk gave "updating" us a few months after the new store opened. He touted technology with cameras able to read the numbers on your credit card as you checked out the store! You also must have missed the fact that Walmart ditched greeters at least a year ago ...

As for "the perp" ... she died in the accident and her accomplice isn't in very good shape either.

Do you even watch/read the local news?? It doesn't show.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Scats. Once again you have turned a discussion about who is responsible in an accident into a personal attack on a contributor. I think the comment about the "greeter" was a sarcastic way of referring to the Walmart staff and their limited capabilities.
Yes the driver of the car died, but doesn't the financial culpability for the accident survive? If the owner of the car was not the driver, then the owner has some responsibility. I believe that is why the owner of a car buys insurance on the car, and what accidents the car may in involved in.

SCATS said...

To 3:55PM ~~ When someone tries to speak with some measure of authority, as 1:50PM did, then I would expect they would possess the basic facts. 1:50PM failed to show that was the case.

As for sarcasm, you missed mine when I brought up the " highly touted talks Walmart's security folk gave "updating" us". We were sold another bill of goods with the security of this Walmart store. Now, it's OUR problem ;)

SCATS said...

By the way 3:55PM don't overlook the potential for the vehicle being stolen. While I'm not saying it happened this time, it pops up frequently in such cases. Insurance companies and law enforcement both turn their backs on the victims of auto thieves ... unless the vehicle is used to commit another crime, it's the owner's loss to recover from, usually with a check that pays a fraction of the value of the car to the owner. They don't even take fingerprints in recovered cars to try to resolve the crime.

Anonymous said...

Who would I blame if I were the parent?? Well I for one don't have an obsession with the town of Greece so I'd place the blame where it rightfully belongs, on the driver of the car.

SCATS said...

To 6:09PM ~~ That doesn't explain why GPD felt the need to spend the weekend defending themselves with their "we didn't pursue" line. Regardless, the result was the SAME as if they had. An innocent child died.

Anonymous said...

Fact, the crime happened at Walmart Dewey ave Greece.
Fact, discription of car and occupants as well as last seen direction of travel is relayed to all Greece cars as well as city west side cars.
Fact, Crime happened in Greece thus GPD responibility
Probable fact. Greece officer involved may been at Ridge and Stone or Bonesteel street, when call went
out.
Fact. Given the direction of travel of suspect vehicle sets a possible intercept course East on Ridge to the Dewey Ave intersection. Totally irrelevant, less than a mile from Greece - City boundaries.
Fact. Cop gets lucky and spots suspect vehicle at intersection. Lucky because suspect vehicle may have exited Dewey ave any place along the Dewey corridor before arriving at Ridge Rd
Fact attempts to make lawful stop. driver disobeys order and speeds away
Fact. Now two crimes exist Larceny and failure to comply with a lawful order
Probable fact, department policy prohibits chasing vehicles in either instance. Cop get plate number calls it in and enters it in his computer. reports he has info and does not pursue vehicle
Fact. SO WHAT THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM?
WHERE ARE THE FACTS THAT DISPUTE MY SCENARIO?
FACT. THE LAST TIME I LOOKED, THERE EXISTED NO WALL THAT SEPERATES THE CITY FROM GREECE

Anonymous said...

Scats a question? Why is it so hard for you except the fact that an innocent child died because of actions of the irresponsible criminal behavior of the person at the wheel of a car?

SCATS said...

To 10:32AM ~~ FACT: FROM INSIDE THE PERP'S VEHICLE, THE ATTEMPTED TRAFFIC STOP APPEARED TO BE THE SAME AS THE START OF A CHASE, THUS THE HIGH SPEED FLEEING OF THE SCENE BY THE PERP THAT CAUSED THE ACCIDENT!

To 12:59PM ~~ I do "except" it :) Thus, my argument!

Anonymous said...

The little darling would have known what a chase is if a Troop car had been on the back bumper.

Old rule in the criminal world, you take your chances and you get what you get.

Bottom line, the world didn't loose a future Nobel Prize contestant, and a mortuary will turn a profit on the deal. Looks +++ to me.

NEXT

SCATS said...

To 10:23PM ~~ What a callous attitude you have!! A 2 1/2 yr. old toddler also lost his life! His only "crime" was sitting strapped into his car seat as an innocent passenger.

Anonymous said...

PERP?PERP? Watchout scats,your preoccupation with law enforcement is influencing your vocabulary lolp

Anonymous said...

Scats, I think most would agree that this crash was a tragedy. But would you not have GPD not try to stop cars leaving a crime scene? Wouldn't that just make the town of Greece an Open House for shoplifting, larceny and armed robberies?
Not being argumentative, I just would like your proposal to prevent these tragedies.

Anonymous said...

8:18 SCATs,
You sir are an ass... Screaming back on your own Blog? Or was that a grammar mistake? Or simply a rebuke of something that struck a nerve with you?
Your mockery of simple English grammar does not make you an expert on anything other than simple English grammar.
The Police are entrusted to investigate crimes, pursuits under that aspect of law makes pursuit - not chases as you describe, inevitable.
The only crime of the 2 1/2 year old was being born to and then strapped into the car seat by a adult criminal who premeditatedly chose to steal, flee recklessly, and then at the hands of that same parent chose to ignore the lawful orders of a police officer, flee not one but two crimes... Police not guilty of anything! Child not guilty of anything... Driver and accomplice guilty of everything! Now hang 'em.

SCATS said...

To 5:54PM ~~ Me an ass? Ha ha ha ha!!! The "adult criminal" in this situation was NOT the child's parent, but the driver of the FLEEING VEHICLE who crashed into the auto driven by totally innocent folks!

I'll await your heart-felt apology, but not while holding my breath ;) Maybe just my nose lol

Anonymous said...

Scats, can you tell us what you propose as an alternative to GPD chasing criminals and attempting to apprehend them?

I am not trying to be nasty or argumentative, just wondering what your proposal is that doesn't open Greece up as a place to shoplift, rob and steal?

SCATS said...

To 8:08PM ~~ How about we make these retailers responsible for their own losses? I've yet to hear of a cop engaged in a high speed chase to recover some family's stolen TV & video game system. So why should the cops do it for retailers, especially those who already have invested in "loss prevention"?

Anonymous said...

Notice to all organized city BOOSTER GANGS. Greece is now an OPEN town. Our police will not interfere with your
Criminal Enterprise. They will refuse to try and apprehend you as long as you steal from the big box retailers who now will be required to provide theirown stop-loss with employees to retrieve their property . They will chase you in their own cars because in the case if Walmart, that will be a condition of employment.However, if you commit residential burglary and steal their electronics we will vigorously pursue you. One condition in this instance, please provide our PD in advance the address and time you plan to enter the residence so that our officers can arrive in time to chase and apprehend you.
We think this a fair deal, It will also deal with the criticzism of some of our residents who claim we never arrive until after you have left the scene

Anonymous said...

re5:54's comment. This commenter is so very wrong. As scats pointed out the poor child was not in the car of the fleeing alleged shoplifter. The car holding the child was just innocently there.
Our police will answer a call from a homeowner who has been robbed...burglary. But they don't offer any hope to find the robbers. Usually they find these people after some property has been fenced. Why is it the responsibility of our police to do the job of Walmart security? If the shoplifters get out of the store with the goods ...tough on the store. Our police should not be endangering our roadways with pursuit or attempted apprehension of shoplifters. Walmart makes enough in profits to hire enough security. Same with stores at the mall. Why do you think that Michael's at the mall has no exit directly into the mall? They can monitor their store better. Notice that most of the new restaurants and stores at the new wing of the mall do not have access to the mall. Same reason. They want to be in the location of the mall but do not want full access. BTW 5:54 sounds an awful lot like 10:32 . He thinks he knows all about the facts. Sounds like an ex-cop trying to protect the police? He didn't like it that you pointed out his creation of the word "except" as a verb. LOL And you didn't even point out his misspelling of "seperate" "discription" "responibility". That's because it was so much more humorous to use"except" ironically in your reply. Bravo scats.

SCATS said...

To Todd, AKA 6:30AM ~~ TY for chiming in! Heard you on Lonsberry today responding to this BLOG. You used the EXACT same words on his show! Glad to see that you are earning your salary via PR now that Lovely needs a top cop. Where were you the last 18 months after taking out your pal in the boxing ring? BTW, how is his recovery coming along?

To 6:38AM ~~ TY for attempting to set that WAG straight. Your point about mall entrances is well-taken.

Anonymous said...

6:38 In the context of things, why do you choose to focus on irrelevant typos instead of the content of the post. I guess when you don't like the message then shoot the messenger . I happen to think that the facts posted by one of those you shot down, were probably right on target. Especially since no one else has come up with facts that refute what was posted.
I guess posting factual comments that do not mirror the rumors and other crap on this site are doomed to any form of menial criticism to diminish their credibility and that is indeed is a shame What's even a bigger shame is the fact that in so doing it is nothing more than self serving on your part as you believe you were successful. Not so as your motives are transparent to intelligent readers of this blog.Why are so many of you afraid of the truth?

SCATS said...

To 10:43AM ~~ I believe that 6:38AM DID ADDRESS THE FACTS ny setting the other poster straight in his/her erroneous reporting of his version of said facts! From the 13WHAM website: "According to police, the two-year-old boy was riding in the car with his mother, when their vehicle was struck by a car trying to evade police. The driver of that other car, a 35-year-old Rochester woman, also died in the crash."

Once a person realizes that someone else's comments are soooo far away from reality, setting the record straight only takes a sentence or two ... then there's time leftover, and space, to correct the grammar.

Apparently you want to continue to believe the toddler was in the getaway car, which he was not. You are entitled to your fantasy, BUT keep it to yourself please.

Anonymous said...

Where is the question KittyCat?
The dead kid got dead via criminal action. When will MrGlamor PD file proper charges so Sandy Baby can screw the case up AGAIN?

Looks like an easy Manslaughter conviction for a real DA.

You're right, I am callous. I've lived in Greece since Gordon Howe was Supervisor. You gotta be tough to live in Greece. This ain't a MarkKay town.

Real Greece Taxpayers don't cry!

Anonymous said...

Sorry but I was talking about the facts laid out by 10:32 not 5:54. These facts were obviously in error and correctly pointed out along the irrelevant grammar mistakes made in the 5:54 post. 6:38 referred to 1032 as someone who thinks he knows the facts referring to this person as a cop. Totally unsubstantiated by 6:38 by not offering two things. Personal knowledge that the poster was in fact a cop.And most importantly failing to offer facts that contradicted the facts and probables posted in his scenario of the events leading up to this tragic accident Those comments are without merit and credibility
As I posted earlier, Until the scenario spelled out by 10:32 is proven inaccurate, I prefer to accept his rendering of the facts regardless who that poster might be as they appear to be logical to me.

Anonymous said...

This is 6:30. by AKA TODD, I assume you were referring to Baxter. Wrong ! Never met the man. Wouldn't talk to Lonsberry even with a gun at my head. As far as where I have been for the last 18 months is none if you business.Finally. The last time I had fight with a pal , about 20 yrs ago, I got knocked on my ass.

Anonymous said...

Hey mr 1:19. Taxpayer . When you figure out a way to charge a dead person with manslaughter or for that matter any crime, please let us know. Your obvious age is definately in play here. Your cutsie post is really sad, not callous.

SCATS said...

To 1:22PM ~~ Whoa!! Let me go draw a mindmap so I can sort out who said what and when ... but it won't matter anyway. You are stuck in your version of reality.

To 1:55PM ~~ You and Todd share yshare the cop-speak you both use. The brotherhood lives on ;)

Anonymous said...

3:55, yo got 2 actors in the car, both were acting in concert in the initial crime, both are equally chargeable.

Whole damn reason for increased crime in this County is the Cutsie DA who wants to be a Social Worker and Mommie to criminals.

Lock up every available criminal and watch people start thinking Eastview Mall is a better target.

SCATS said...

To 5:34PM ~~ If I'm not mistaken, of the two, one is dead and the other is 15. I haven't heard what, if any role the 15 yr. old played. Can you elaborate?

Anonymous said...

Hey yo the other occupant of the car a 15 yr old, can only be charged with criminal possession of stolen property found in the car as a minor. Or larceny if she can be identified as being involved in the actual theft within the store.Unless she was the actual driver of the car , she can not be charged if only a passenger with any crime causing the death of the victim in the struck car. I t would be a huge stretch to charge her as being complicate in the crime committed by the driver. In any case, she would be treated as a minor.

Anonymous said...

SCATS, if you want a police force that is not allowed to pursue criminals then you should move to the City. There, the government refuses to support its officers when they make arrests and they even drop legitimate charges. If you want a police force that combats crime, then stay here and support our officers. The vast majority of Greece residents support the GPD and what they do to protect our families.

SCATS said...

To 5:14AM ~~ Despite the troubles you have writing, I agree about the point you made about the minor. FYI, the word you wanted to use was "complicit" not "complicate."

To 10:55AM ~~ Please prove to us all how "the vast majority of Greece residents support the GPD." I'm pretty sure you can't. In truth, the vast majority of Greece residents are too apathetic to support anyone or anything. They don't even go to the polls!

Also, I must correct you.I didn't ask that the cops not pursue criminals. I'm merely suggesting that pursuit of those who steal from retailers should be more the retailers problem than the community's . When our homes are burgled, our insurance company pays. Retailers can CHOOSE to have better loss prevention that includes armed security OR chalk it up to the cost of doing business or some other measure. The taxpayers of Greece should NOT be funding cops to CHASE AFTER shoplifters in cars to try to recover $500 in goods (or even $1000 or more) while jeopardizing the lives of the innocent who share the roads. A "traffic stop" and "a chase" appear to be the same to the thief! I want the streets to be safe, despite the criminals who share them.

Anonymous said...

Seems to me judging by the comments posted on this thread, you stand pretty much alone on your position on the law enforcement policies regarding how to deal with the bad guys This would seem to indicate that a vast majority of Greece taxpayers do not agree with your position. I do not believe you can prove otherwise so why not concede that you are in the minority on this issue.
If you want to see support for our locals, if a referendum was on the ballot abolishing our local PD in favor of the county sheriffs , there would be long lines at the polls to reject that notion.

Anonymous said...

I fully agree with he Cat!
Walmart should hire good snipers and set them up to solve the marauding shoplifter gangs right there in the store.

In the finest Walmart-China partnership tradition organs could be harvested and sold for transplant to recover the cost of the sniper & cleanups.
Clearly the time has arrived to quit screwing around.

Sniper loss prevention will give us lower body counts and no danger to innocent drivers on the roads as well as lower gas and vehicle costs for GPD, to say nothing of Court time.

Anonymous said...

You don't want trained police on the road trying to stop cars of shoplifters or (presumably) armed robbers because it makes the streets unsafe for law abiding drivers. Yet you would have stores higher armed guards who could open fire in a store or parking lot. That seems to be as unsafe as trying to apprehend a car on the street.

SCATS said...

To 4:40PM ~~ Seems to me that if you judge by the comments posted here, it will be YOU, ME and 1-3 others who have bothered to comment! Therefore, you can not conclude that I'm in the minority. As for the long lines at the polls that you are talking about, I concede that the "brotherhood" (union) will make sure they get their vote out. That in no way means they are "in the majority" though.

To 6:02PM & 8:59PM ~~ I hadn't really thought about snipers ... or anyone opening fire in the store. I was thinking more along the lines of undercover pistol carrying security who would have no problem approaching the criminals during the attempted heist and resolving the crime without need for a chase. Video camera back-up for the court case ;)

Anonymous said...

Scats pretty weak respone to 4:40 your saying 4 people are responsible for 42 comments. What should I and others take away from that claim .

SCATS said...

To 11:01PM ~~ You can take away exactly what I said before: "... the vast majority of Greece residents are too apathetic to support anyone or anything." In this case, this thread has been viewed around 300 times, but only a few bother to speak up on either side. Typical Greece ;)

Anonymous said...

So let me see here. If we use your figures I make it this way. If we remove your 16 comments from 44 that works out to 28 other posters. Now since it's reasonable to say that each of those 28would have to visit the site at least twice.once to read any new comments and once to post a new reply. That adds up to 56 visits by those 28. Now if we take away 56 from 300 that means that 244 readers made no comments.
What I take away from that is this.not much interest in the topic therefore no interest in making a comment it would seem logical to me to draw that conclusion rather than yours wouldn't you agree

SCATS said...

To 2:57PM ~~ Actually, YOU, as well as a couple others, have POSTED HERE MULTIPLE TIMES. Regardless that, I stated that it shows " the majority of Greece residents are too apathetic to support anyone or anything."

Apathetic MEANS INDIFFERENT! It does NOT mean they support the cops!

Why are you arguing with me when you just agreed with me??? ("not much interest in the topic therefore no interest in making a comment"). Doesn't that mean indifferent??? Too much time on your hands??? lol

Anonymous said...

I do not disagree with you about the general apathy of the residence of Greece. It's abundantly clear in their attitude about the present status of this town when they fail to show up at the polls to express their desire for change. I refuse to believe its because they are totally indifferent, but have adopted a "what's the use attitude". They simply have been whipped into submission. Until that attitude changes, this town will continue to operated for the benifit of the few at the expense if the many. it's really not that complicated.
However, if a situation arises that they perceive as a threat to the their safety, that would trigger a much bigger response. The referendum I spoke if would be an example.
Look, you and I have locked horns on issues related to law enforcement every time such topic is discussed on your site I freely admit to that. However, I don't necessarily disagree with your displeasure regarding the operation of our PD. My disagreement is mostly related to your negative approach on how to bring about needed change which is needed in order to deal with the current demographics in play in Greece. Operating in a manner that existed 20 years ago, won't cut it. Change is needed and it starts from the top on down..
For my part , I plan on going to the top shortly after the first of the year. I stopped trying to Talk to Auburger years ago. Believe it or not, prior to that, as head of our group, I had a good repore with him to the extent that we convinced him to over rule Rahn's attempt to abolish the K-9 unit at that time which he did for the reasons we put forward
It is my hope that the new leadership will be interested in talking to us and listen to our ideas on how we feel we can increase the effectiveness of our PD in a progressive manner to better serve our Community
It is my hope that in the event we are successful in our approach and you agree with any development, you would supportive my efforts as well as others.
Merry Christmas to you and yours as well as all who participate on this blog site.

SCATS said...

To 10:46AM ~~ I never woulda guessed that we agree on so much! Having said that, I don't see my "approach on how to bring about needed change" as "negative." Some people fear change, any change. I embrace change, especially when it's brought about to replace years of muddled, ineffective efforts.

Merry Christmas to you, too :)

Anonymous said...

Will we be seeing you at the swearing in ceremony?

SCATS said...

To 9:27PM ~~ Swearing in of whom?? Relich? There's nothing new about him!