Friday, February 15, 2013

New Mall Restaurants

 
WHEC-TV reports: "Bar Louie, Moe's Southwest Grill and Red Robin Gourmet Burgers, if they receive special use permits from the Greece Town Board, will move into a wing being renovated at the mall. The wing was most recently anchored by the Bon-Ton department store."
  

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

why are we subsidizing these restaurants? THey are chains with lots of deep pockets an contribute little to making the mall better? Why are we paying Wilmot to bring in junk

Anonymous said...

Whoopie Doo-

How many tax dollars is it costing the rest of us so a paltry few can be employed in these emporiums of preportioned plastic swill to alternately pick their nose and ass entertaining the customers, after enduring parking in Greece's megamess and walking far farther than it takes to get into any other eatery on Ridge rd?

SCATS said...

To 8:30PM ~~ The "powers that be" are in TOTAL DENIAL about the status of the Greece Ridge mall. The reality is that they OVERBUILT it back when they connected the two malls. This monstrosity has yet to be fully occupied. If it weren't for shoe stores and mediocre retailers, it would be empty.

Anonymous said...

So who has a better idea?

Tax deals for businesses is the norm around here, that's just our way of coercing business to come to politicians on bended knee. In places with low taxes (like Texas) politicians have less say over what kinds of businesses get established, because entrepreneurs do whatever they want so long as they can afford the low tax. We enlightened New Yorkers want to pick and choose which businesses we allow, so we use a high nominal tax to force everyone to pass through the favor-givers office.

Backing off of the corrupt-NY rant, though, putting a business in an empty space using tax incentives doesn't cost us anything unless there was a higher-paying alternative use of the same space. Which brings me back to the original question: who has a better idea?

My preference would be for an indoor shooting range. Maybe 15-20 lanes of 50ft pistol range, and if the long space can be arranged, half a dozen lanes of 200ft rifle range?

Just try to find a decent shooting range on the west side... there are none, unless you're willing to go all the way out to Batavia. You could make serious money (and improve the security situation) with a shooting complex at the mall!

Now, nobody is going to like that idea (this is, after all, the most excellent of Nanny States). So what is the rent- and tax-paying alternative? A hemp weaving co-op?

SCATS said...

To 12:47AM ~~ You make it sound as if tearing down BonTon and building the new restaurant space was "free." It wasn't! We're all paying. Wanna bet that one or more of these new "must have" chains goes away within 18 months of opening?

Anonymous said...

You first need to understand the 10 year subsidy they and similar project get. First they cost no Greece resident money. Let me explain: If the mall was paying $100,000. per year in taxes and this project brings an additional $20,000 in taxes, the incentive that is given is a 10 year graduation of new taxes. So year one they pay $102,000, year two $104,000 until the ten year they pay the full amount $120,000. So every year they pay more than when it started costing us nothing more. Some may say why give them 10 years to ramp up? The answer is simple, the high cost of taxes here in NY rather than other states. So if you say the heck with it we don't need them to come here, well then you are going to pay more taxes because the graduated $20,000 would never be realized and you and me would pay a bigger share then if they were here. So yes commercial development does keep our home owner taxes down.

SCATS said...

To 8:21PM ~~ But the mall itself costs all of us more because they get their reductions which are supposed to be offset by creating jobs. They don't, but they get their reductions renewed anyway. Greece Ridge Mall = White Elephant.

Anonymous said...

I think 8:21 makes the better case, Scats.

SCATS said...

To 9:59PM ~~ They are not about the same topic, but an overlapping one.

Anonymous said...

8:21PM......If we are going to give a business MY tax dollars to subsidize THEIR taxes and building,then I want MY TAX dollars to go into creating jobs that pay more than MINIMUM wage. Or in the case of the Mall, less than minimum wage since these will be waiter and waitress jobs plus tips. These folks will NOT put much money back into our local economy by purchasing homes so they can pay taxes, or cars or other large ticket items. They will just walk out of work and go spend their paycheck at the mall on music, clothes or $200 sneakers. Wilmorite is loving this deal. This is corporate welfare at its worst.

Anonymous said...

SCATS, at 11:01 you're not quite right. They are the same topic, just on a different scale.

Greece Ridge Mall gets a "reduction" relative to a nominal tax that nobody pays. If Greece Ridge Mall weren't there, we wouldn't have more revenue coming into the town coffers, but less. Even with the "reduction" they pay more taxes than any credible alternative use of the location.

The "reduction" is not really a reduction at all, it is a negotiated realistic tax. Nobody ever imagined that the full rate could be extracted from anyone, it was just a coercive number established to give the government the upper hand in negotiating what will really happen.

That is the exact same thing happening on a grand scale with the mall as a whole that is happening on a smaller scale with the restaurants.

This is not an exception, it is business as usual. An exception would be for any large land user to not get a negotiated rate. It never happens, but then again it was never supposed to happen. The whole point of the game is to coerce negotiations, nothing more.

SCATS said...

To 12:3AM ~~ I was thinking in terms of the COMIDA breaks when I wrote that ... I just couldn't recall the word COMIDa at the time. We are ALL paying more to let Wilmorite play at the mall because of COMIDA.

Charlie Hubbard said...

You must first have an appreciation for what COMIDA is - county of monroe INDUSTRIAL developement assoc. A committee of politicaly connected people, state sanctioned with little to no oversite. Deemed needed to attract companies due to our completely assinine property taxes. Having failed to attract companies they chose to demonstrate their worth by giving tax breaks for those politicaly connected RETAIL owners who 'yes' do employee people. THIS is now their idea of progress. We now are giving tax breaks for the restruants at GreeceRidge, hotels in Henrietta, dentist offices, the I-Square in Irondequoit, and were involved in tax breaks for Medley Center. ALL RETAIL.

Make no mistake every tax break given to one results in a tax increase for the rest of us - PERIOD. Until recently elected officials chose to close their eyes to what COMIDA was doing. Until recently NONE of our elected officials voted to approve any of these tax breaks - not wanting to be involved.

Bottom line - no unelected 'committee' should posses the ability to effect our taxes without the express consent of our 'elected' officials.
Bottom line for COMIDA - stick to 'industrial' as intended - get out of the politicaly charged RETAIL taxbreak business.

SCATS said...

Thank you Charlie. VERY well-stated!!

Anonymous said...

These places won't last a year. Who has money to eat out?

SCATS said...

To 5:07PM ~~ I tend to agree they won't last. We really have a ton of burger joints on 104 already. The mall has Friendly's & TGIFriday's & Burger King ... with McD's out front.

Anonymous said...

I have money to eat out. Only because I'm a greece fire chief making 130k a year, taxpayer-funded car, answer to no one and only work 2-3 hours a day. Please don't expect me to be a "real" fireman, however. I have a condition..

Anonymous said...

Charlie Hubbard you are wrong. If that Mall was not there, then you would see our taxes go up. Truth is commercial development is a cash cow for the town. They pay school taxes (which is the largest portion of property taxes) but do not send one child to school. They plow there own snow and pave there own lot so other than Police services cost the town no money. If they were gone your taxes including school taxes would go up! If the taxes structoure in our Medicaid over spending state were not so high we would not need these programs. If our medicaid spending were on par with California we could cut our state budget by 20 billion!

SCATS said...

To 10:50PM ~~ Even the school district cut them a tax break! As for police services, we should NOT have to provide them at all to any retailer. You forgot to mention fire & ambulance ;)

Charlie Hubbard said...

to 10:50 (anonymous)
Based on your posting ALL commercial properties should be 'entitled' to a tax reduction - right? THEY also pave their own lots and plow their own snow - right? Will 'other' restruants 'benefit'? Will 'other' taxpayers benefit?

If the mall was not there - is too stupid to comment on.

Anonymous said...

10:50 And who plows (repaves, rebuilds) the roads that surround the mall? Who takes care of the signal lights? Who provides the inspections for building usage and health in the restaurants? Who sends the emergency workers? Who sends the police to arrest thieves?
All the work on ridge with the medians and u-turns was at first a complication for the mall but now they are reaping the benefits. (Sorry to the smaller businesses that fell apart during that time) But the mall survived and that's good for them. It's not true that the mall is its own isolated self sufficient entity. And BTW I don't have an opinion on whether they got the comida benefit or not. I just wanted you to know they get the benefit of the town and county and state and federal services. Plowing your own property does not translate into being completely self sufficient.

SCATS said...

Another detail that burns my backside is the fact that if you really look BENEATH THE SURFACE, Wilmorite invests almost NOTHING into Greece Ridge mall, especially when compared to Eastview. We are on course to see who becomes the next Irondequoit mall first. Will it be Greece Ridge or Marketplace?

Anonymous said...

Regarding 10:50. When a development such as the mall goes in they usally pay for the traffic lights and reconfiguration of the road. A traffic light is billed to them at the cost of 100K. They should pay for there own emergency services?? Give me a break then if they can't call on those services then they would get nothing for there tax dollars. Fact is homes are a drain on the municipality and commercial is the cash cow. Get over the animosity toward businesses and business owners, I suspect you worked for one if you ever worked.

SCATS said...

To 6:27PM ~~ Retail is at the bottom of the heap. Malls are mega-retail ... 6 feet under from the start. Restaurants are even worse. Like a previous poster stated, it's unlikely all of these new eateries will still be there 12 months after opening their doors. More mediocre chain restaurants and shoe stores ... is that the BEST Greece can attract?

SCATS said...

On the issue of COMIDA, here is the epitome of ridiculousness in their tax breaks. This time, Tops Markets gets two breaks, each time for relocating a store down the street so they can sell gasoline!
http://therochesterian.com/2013/02/21/tops-tax-help/