Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Odyssey, District Sports, Arts Funding & Fairness ...

Anonymous said...
Students should never within a public school have a "specialty school" as it is simply unfair to all other families in the community irregardless of cost.
All students should have an equal opportunity at the same levels of education. To not do so is at the very least questionable and at the very most unconstitutional, students are citizens.
In regards to finances. I am sure if Odyssey were closed the other schools could absorb the student body. Perhaps the cost savings help put back in place vocational programs, arts. I've found it funny (not) that the School District continues to fund sports, even Hockey yet when it comes to Arts, vocational training they whack it.
Is every kid who plays soccer, football, baseball, basketball, hockey etc going to get a job in sports? Pretty unlikely. In fact, I'd bet more kids (who were) in vocational classes, arts find jobs there or in related business then sports players find in that industry.I understand parents like to see their kids "play ball".
I understand kids like to "play ball". But parents and the kids need to realize that its a tough world and its going to get tougher. Our children need be prepared with marketable skills .vs. the ability to hit a ball with a stick. Not to mention that MANY more kids dont play sports than do!The charge of Public Schools is to teach our children and give them marketable skillsets without disallowing any of them opportunities.
Odyssey by nature disallows other children within the community the same opportunities. Reduction or axing of classes needed to represent ALL students prospects in favor of funding sports and/or Odyssey is another example of this unfair district set of policies.
Educators who work at Odyssey should never have their own children be allowed to attend, there's a real no brainer, yet doesnt happen that way. Both of the Principles children are graduates from Odyssey for example.
If a specialty school is warrented then it should be for troubled kids. A place where resources are expended to get them on a more productive path for a future while removing the disturbance from mainstream schools. Watch how many of the Odyssey educators would stay on THAT ship. They'd jump off instantly. This says much.It says much about what the school is.
It says much about the dedication of the teaching/administrative staff. 'As long as we get the "right kids" we have the "Academy"'. Bring in the troubled kids as a whole and, "This is not what I became a teacher for" will occur.
In these difficult times here's my solution for families:
1. Odyssey be Closed.
2. Each High School has one sports program Olympia maybe Football, Arcadia say Basketball, Athena say Baseball. If the district wishes they can "Take the best" from all hish schools for each team. So we have the "Greece Central Football team" etc.
We'd also have the best sports teams in the area. So parents can "woo woo" on that and so can Greece Central Press.
With money saved, restore vocational programs, fund the arts properly.
Now we are TRULY giving our students ALL a fair chance. After all, as I said... How many sports kids get the big leagues or even minors? Few. So... A life lesson right there. Of three high schools only "nn" will "make the cut. Thats life... And maybe some of that "fine cut" will have a better shot at making real careers in sports since the best of all the high schools are "one team".
Meanwhile the rest of the kids can benefit from the money saved and give them opportunties since after all, they are the majority right?
Our school district stinks of the same garbage as Greece local government. Aristocracy that doess all of us tremendous injustice and it needs to change. 6/17/2009 7:38 PM


jcorourke said...

The usual whiners and complainers.

SCATS said...

To jc ~~ YOUR comment constitutes that which you are whining and complaining about ;)

Anonymous said...

JC must have won the lottery to take that stance.

Anonymous said...


Ah... a product of finer education.

Ummm... Course Rourkster' you might not have considered the fact that for nearly 6 years I worked within Greece Oddity, I mean Odyssey. You might not consider the fact I did 2 years of at Greece Athena. You might not consider the fact I did another 7 years at District Offices before they decided to become the Greek gods atop Mount Apollo.

Hmmm... might never have considered that part huh?

Perhaps I should have posted a Biography first and thus you may have considered a more substantial statement rather than "The usual whiners and complainers".

Our school district is ever so similar to local government, I wonder why?

Please let fly another intestinal statement and I'll be happy to inform the public. Of? Of things such as intentional census alterations resulting in bond issues for more schools. The parties involved subsequently going to work for those companies that have and still do get all those nifty building contracts.

Perhaps more about teachers who work against the GTA and get whatever they like for their classrooms initial orders, while others are stuck with no new resources for students.

Maybe talk about things like district materials as programs discontinue going where? Infinty!

Like Washing machines, dryers, slate tables that cost $1500+ a pop. Lathe's, drill presses, why they even took Little Linda Who's Candy canes just like the Grinch!

We might wish to discuss how many employee's were "silently" released after using district resources shall we say... inappropriately or... just appropriated.

We might instead discuss Mount Apollo? How about "We need new busses" but then we'll sell old busses and put that in the general fund! Woo Woo!

Here's Greece Central Priority:

1. Our Money
2. Their Money
3. Anyone elses money they can get
4. Secrecy
5. Advertising how good we are
6. (more)...
1001. Your childrens education
1002. Your community.

Anonymous said...

and just how many students of the arts make it anywhere either.

this is the most ridulous posting I have ever seen.

how about one super sized band from all the schools as well and one dance team and one show choir-and rename the performing arts center to cover all the schools and use it for everything and only choose the best of the best from all schools too.

so stupid

Anonymous said...

As Greece tax payer, I think we should close all the schools and save lots and lots of money. In place of that we give all students a voucher to be used at any private school of their choice.

Anonymous said...

Hope this is the proper place to post this but I just have to wonder if other parents of hard working children and families feel the same.

Last evening I listened to a 22 yr old drop out of Greece Central talk about her latest accomplishments and future plans.

She has a 3 1/2 yr old daughter

will not marry the father
receives no child support
works 2 days a week as a bartender under the table
lives in subsidized housing
gets welfarte for the kid and herself
has no drivers license
oh got her GED

got over 5000$ back from her taxes because of her kid-thanks kid

is going to vegas and paying for her friends to go with the tax refund-oh did I mention for the third time in 2 years

and announced she is going to MCC for the 2 plus 4 program and then on to St. John Fisher

and its getting paid for by the gov't because she's getting 9000$ per semester free money because of the kid-thanks again kid.

nice life and boy she is really smart-certainly knows how to work the system

so my point

here's my child,

National Honor Society Member
Class President
works some 20 hours a week
partcipates in clubs and volunteers
belongs to a sports team
takes ap classes and regents

will graduate next year, wants to go to a private school that up until last year I could afford before my employer changed health care plans and my cost rose 33%-froze wages, stopped the commission plan and will not pay for milage oh and add to it my husband owns his own small business and his clients have stopped paying, filed for bk or are stringing us along for 120 days at a time. My 529 and investments I set aside are worthless now but I make too much money to qualify for aid and apparently so does she.

So who did it the right way-the prego welfare playing the system child who obviously is getting what she needs and doing next to nothing or the kid like mine who now suffers dissappointment or huge future debt because she did the right thing?

Obama is doing nothing more than providing for the so called underprivelaged and frankly lazy!!@!!!!!!! Well now that I am underprivelaged-who's paying for me?

SCATS said...

To 6:27AM ~~ I can definitely feel your pain. I've been in something of a parallel situation. Please know that one HUGE difference between you and Welfare Wanda and child is that your child/ren aren't as likely to land in jail with a two foot long rap sheet, end up with HIV/AIDS, STDs, etc., or abandon you in your time of need or twilight years. It might be hard to accept right now, but avoiding all of things are priceless! On top of that, you will also keep your pride ;)

Anonymous said...

So, how's the whole "dropout rate in Greece" thing coming along these days?

Anonymous said...

Sports and other activities are not about mastering them for a future career. They are about learning - to be a member of a team, to hone a skill though practice, to gain self confidence through achievement and by appearing in front of a crowd, to set goals, and of course, how to win and how to lose.

And your suggestion about having one sport at each school is ridiculous for many reasons, the main two being that

- the rest of Monroe County would not allow it because it would be a "super team" (the reason Greece split into two hockey teams was because the league kicked out our single team as being unfair because the pool of players was too large)

- The whole idea that you are obviously missing is PARTICIPATION. You want as many kids as possible involved in activities because those kids do better in school and get in less trouble

As for Odyssey. Yeah, let's get rid of the one thing that's working. It's sooooo Greece.

Anonymous said...

Sure it's working 12:43, just like Yale works, with a select population. The same logic can also be applied to prisions, they work in a different way. The people coming out of them almost always seem to commit crimes. Again, it's a matter of a select population who has a tendancy to perform a certain way. Yeah, it's working all right, but not for the whole community. As I've said before, the lack of troubled kid's in Odyssey only creates a greater number of troubled kid's in classrooms elsewhere, for everyone else to deal with. You call it "working", and I call it CRAP!

Anonymous said...

"Sports and other activities are not about mastering them for a future career."

Absolutely right!! They are all about:

1 - MONEY!! As in scholarship money!! Because mom and dad shouldn't have to foot THAT bill!!

2 - Parents reliving their youth through their kids!!! If you don't believe me, attend just one soccer game for the under 10 set and tell me why you hear parents shouting the crap they do at little kids.

3 - Notoreity, fame and that "I'm untouchable" feeling at school. Just ask any hockey player!!!

Anonymous said...

Sports can indeed proote teamwork. Of course, our society does not tend to be a team-work society these days.

Kids selected for sports in our schools are generally not selected based on "I want to play". They are selected by who is best at sports. Kinda throws that "team-work" ideal to the wind.

Someone stated how many kids work in "art/performing arts". More than end up working in sports. Graphic Arts, advertising, internet industries. Remember, we hane some thriving technical colleges here. Ask yourself why. We do not have "The Fighting Irish".

I have nothing against sports, they are an industry in our country, again, its about wealth more-so than "healthy competition".

People like sports. They pay more attention in this community to the Buffalo Bills than they do their government. Which, makes government quite happy. This is a simple equation. If you by not being active in your community government, control and issues then you essentially relinquish yourself to being controlled. Not "Free" at all. You reliquish your freedom to others who you let make your life choices for you in part and in some respects in full.

The performing arts also teach teamwork, creativity. I can readily argue that they bring more to the indivdual than do sports. Again, billions of dollars of indsutry are based in the arts, music, advertising, logo's, car designs, houses... in fact literally much of all that we value is based in some form of the arts. Even the Jerseys, logo's, stadium designs for sports.

If it were not for the arts one could say there may not be professional sports as the materials created by "arts" are what "Sells" sports.

Nothing is seperate just like our lives. It is all intertwined.

We can go round and round all we like and solve nothing.

The question is how do we solve issues in this case, better education for our children.

The first steps to that are getting politicians out of the school board. The board need be run by the people with supportive fact finding, accountability and other committee's of volunteers to ensure administration and teaching staff are performing optimally.

If ever "Team-work" was needed its not in our school sports. Its team-work between board, staff and community, business towards a common goal. Our community, our children.

Staff salaries should be comensurate with those in the community they serve. Period.

But thats not what we have.

Instead what we have is yet another system, just like town government, just like county government, just like the Bush administration.


That is to say as long as they can keep you all as a populous running around on different pages and mindsets they are free to do as they please. This is the same reason that government likes categorize all of you, left, right, liberal on and on. As long as they categorize you, you are proud of that categorization then you follow, never lead. You are sheep, not foxes.

We believe as a nation we are intelligent people and we are when we take the true initiative to do so. That means THINKING not rash statements. It means research, not, "This is it".

Our nation is essentially on the decline as we have lost what makes American great in complacency. What we value is not one another but what we have.

Anonymous said...


Our leaders wish you to think you are "empowered" when in fact unless you take the initiative to be empowered you are not. So, categorize you.

Our schools are simply a microcosm of this same governmental turbulence purposefully placed upon population. As long as you think you know what your talking about, and your all arguing with one another... they can do what they please. Thank you.

The moment you unite as an organization with power towards changing the way they operate, boy oh boy will you see the true colors come through in resistence.

If Odyssey is the way to success for all students then by all means, implmement what they do district wide.

As I said, I worked there. Though I have heard its changed since then it was unique. Not necessarily fair, but unique.

I know Mrs Meier and she is a fine educator. She demands results, she is innovative, and she wants staff who will take the extra initiative for success. At the sametime, she expects parents to be parents. Lead family by example.

Parents with kids outside Odyssey have every right to be upset. Their kids dont get the benefit of that education, yet, they should.

One poster said, "Classic Greece. Do away with the only thing in the schools thats great, Odyssey". If it is unfair to other students/families who do not get the benefits than fair is fair. Period. Their taxes pay for these schools, staff etc.

However, if it is the case that Odyssey's educational experience is superior then by all means, change all the schools. We'll see how many parents want help ensure their kids success.

A former VP at Hoover Drive named Warren Foster... one of the smartest people I have ever had the pleasure to know (RIP) once told me, "Its alot easier for smart people to act stupid and thus manipulate people than it is for stupid people to act smart".

This is what we have in our schools, this is what we have in town and county government. Ya'll yap and run around like ant's while they keep you running. Meantime they are doing what is not in your best interests and via a few words make you believe they are.

Susan Meier is not that. She is smart, extremely smart and driven. To many people almost intimidatingly smart. But that is because "most" people do not take the effort of vision for children AND child.

I have nothing against Odyssey, as I said... I worked there. What I do have something against is the rest of the student population not given the same opportunities. If that means Odyssey need close then that is fair. I didnt say, "Its right". Whats right is what results in all the students we have be given equal opportunity to succeed in life. If that means all schools should be like Odyssey then lets do that. Results count, everything else is immaterial as the goal of education is success.

As long as the districts goals are consistently money, money, control, salaries, benefits and "self" before kids we have what we have. Perhaps Odyssey has changed, been a while since my tenure.

But, if Susan Meier is the same Susan Meier then she's about success. Shes about giving kids the best that her select educators can give and she demands it. That may make her unpopular amongst other's but she gets results. If that's what it takes to get them, lets do it across all schools. If we cant do that, then we need to fall back to whats fair.

Perhaps convince staff who seek success in kids to form a private school system that can then teach the public schools what success is about, how its achieved.

Anonymous said...

Re: Sports being about's not. Something like one half of one percent of kids playing sports get scholarships. For a select few, high school sports is their ticket to college, but for 99%, it's about having fun and learning about life.

Anonymous said...

7:44 While I'm sure your figures are probably close to reality, the problem is that these kids and their parents BELIEVE they can get scholarships for playing. And school districts let them keep on believing too. As seen with the hockey groupies, they will do whatever to keep the status quo going- lying, cheating, nothing is impossible. And if you ever want to see throngs of THOUSANDS, maybe TEN THOUSAND turn out to vote on a school district budget, merely mention the possibility that something might get cut!

Anonymous said...

As a point of interest in sports and the arts:

SCATS said...

To 6/17/2009 11:42 PM ~~ You wrote: "Of things such as intentional census alterations resulting in bond issues for more schools."

Has this topic been discussed in the community previously? Are you referring to the bond issue from the early 1990's?

SCATS said...

Regarding sports and arts programs in the schools ~~ Most people would agree that these things are nice to have. However, in the scheme of things, I believe (MY OPINION) they are "wants", not "needs." When we are failing to provide an adequate basic education to the masses that allows them to graduate after four years of high school while funding a budget that is approaching $200 million/year despite continued reductions in enrollment, then it seems pretty clear to me that we have lost our focus. This district readily talks reductions in teachers that will result in increased class sizes without ever mentioning reductions in extra-curriculars! Gym and art and music classes are part of the basic curriculum. If we fail to teach reading, writing, math, science and history while continuing to fund sports and music programs after hours (extra-curriculars), what kind of message does this send to the students and community?

We put forth much time and effort to measure what is taught in the classroom to show how we're doing (test scores) compared to other schools in other places and even within our own large district. Hockey scores or touch downs or marching bands don't get Odyssey onto the "Top 100 High Schools list." Test scores in academic areas do!

Anonymous said...

SCATS - chicken or the egg. Does Odyssey have half of its teams in the "academic scholar" award category and a hockey team (shared with Athena) with the highest GPA in the entire state because they are smart kids who play sports or does playing sports get them better grades because it teaches them lessons like time management and work ethic?

Anonymous said...

The bond in the 90's resulted from a skewed census. To this day some of the perpetraitors still work for Christa Constructions parent company.

Whom, still are awarded contracts and who are responsible for more than "a few" construction errors that came to light in the inspections of our schools not long back

Anonymous said...

I tend agree with you (SCATS) related to extra curriculum. However, I do believe to create well rounded individuals that the "wants" are in fact important as well be those sports, arts, vocational programs.

I'd like personally to see such things more broadband. Such as courses in real-world business being taught by "Real world business".

There really (IMHO) needs to be some middle ground during these difficult times we live in.

If you'd like see my partial wish list:

1. I think teaching staff, administrative staff should be paid comensurate to that of community average wages. Many employee's in the community have taken substantial pay cuts in the past 15 years. While the value of the dollar has declined, while expenses have went up and this district keeps grabbing for more. The lions share of budget is salary/entitlement.

The staff serve the community and thus should be subject to mean wage of said community. Sure would free up lots of funds for better education. Its a "no no". Knowbody likes to give up wages but thats a "need" not a "want" IMHO :)

2. The Board of Education have public oversight as described prior.

3. Successful local business be given the opportunity to engage students in the classroom be that in seminar and/or actual classes "created". In turn for their donation to the schools they be given some form of compensatory measure and incentive be that tax-credits or perhaps something as simple as community promotion as a business that cares/works for our kids futures.

3. Fair allocation of resources per classroom (favorites 101 out the door).

4. With revenue saved from #1 night education again, provided by educators and/or businesses be centralized to one building (continuing ed if you will) for current STUDENTS and/or those graduated say 1 year out. Parents may and are encouraged to attend.

5. Exceptional educators be they teachers or administrators (in schools) who have proven performance records play a role in the hiring of educators in similar roles district wide. Thus, someone such as Susan Meier who again... I know to be exceptional play a role in making certain other "principals" hired or moved up through the ranks are in fact within the "road to student success" vision that THEY already achieve as educators. Lisa Chapman is another educator I've known. Her drive (and energy!) is simply unbelievable. She's at Odyssey.

Anonymous said...

4. Issues of "humanity" need be addressed in ALL public schools. That is to say, if the USA is to get away from stigma's that "work against society and thus national success" these issues need be addressed EARLY in education and be reinforced through young adulthood. What issues? Racial diversity, differences in people, and more. We need to REMOVE as much (preferably all... not possible) issues of peer groups negatively damaging individuals. That is to say, if a child is very tall, very short, very wide, very thin, big glasses on and on that "kids being kids" hone in on.

Acceptance of people as people all with inherent value to one another is an imperative. No, I dont know how we get from "here" ----> "there" but I do know it needs to happen.

This is another facet at Odyssey when I was there that was considered completely unacceptable. While certainly some goes under the radar they actively almost by "nature" strive to make sure this does not occur.

If that means partnering "jocks" with "brainiacs" in classes and working towards student->student mentoring or kinships then do it.

I could go on...

Again... I am not anti-Odyssey. I am anti a district that does not provide that level of excellence and indeed expectation (thanks Sue!) to all students. Its unfair.

If Odyssey can do it then so can Olympia, Arcadia, Athena, Mt. Apollo.

Alot of educators do not like Susan Meier, alot dont like Odyssey. Is it elite? It performs. Educators will toss many reasons why Odyssey does better. Fine. Then lets make sure that is provided to all schools. Then what will the excuse be?

Odysseys accolades I am sure make staff feel good. Rewarded. However, I do again know people like Lisa, Mrs Meier take much greater reward in the children AND THE CHILD. When I worked there the school also had sense of community. I presume thats why it was renamed "academy" to again reinforce that.

Community dislikes Odyssey because its a, "Lottery". Thus, "my kids may not get to go. May not get a level of education that clearly by results is above the other schools". WHAT PARENT WOULD NOT?

Parents should however be directing that frustration at not Odyssey per se, but the district that needs to make sure that ALL of our schools have that level of expectation, community, excellence, drive and PURPOSE.

If the district cannot do so then again... We need find a way for a private school system and let people like Susan Meier, Lisa Chapman, Liz Izzo, Nick Garbowski and others "build it".

What I state is it is indeed unfair for only a segment of students to get high quality education. I've understood Odyssey since its inception. I'm sure as the "kinks" have been worked out over the years that now much resentment exists from other schools.

What those people need to understand here is that at Odyssey educators have a real commitment to excellence, not today, not next week, not "welp... class after class after class teaching same materials". Each day, each moment and ideas and input are WELCOMED. Additionally, another notable aspect is within Odyssey when they form committee's, working groups they dont sit around and talk talk talk then talk some more and 3 years later try implement ideas that are no longer applicable. They implement.

I guess you might say its a dynamic environment not just for the students but staff. Its why alot of teachers try it and go, "This isnt for me". Its work BEYOND the job terms.

Anonymous said...

For the district administration they may treat it as a "gem" and this is to the disgust of community and even other educators, the "elites". I've been there. I worked there. I can tell you that indeed, those who are odyssey, especially those there since inception like Liz, Sue, Lisa, Ruth Williams... These are not your average educators. These are people who (and this was amazing to me) cared more about those kids and THE KID then alot of those kids actual parents appear to. Thats a big difference. These kids are not numbers (odd, since the lottery deal), they are individuals and at Odyssey there is a huge attempt at no child left behind. These people are among the finest people I have ever known.

With that said, like I said... alot of teachers cant deal with that environment. Its a different kind of pressure. Whats done "right" can be done better. Whats wrong need be made right. Will be made right. Children, Child as a whole and one at a time.

Isnt this what we expect of our schools and educators? Isnt this what we want for all our children?

The question should not be "elite" it should be, what are they doing so right that the other schools are doing so wrong? And, how do we get those other schools doing it too!

Its not like Odyssey has the "best educators per credentials" in the school district. Greece has HEAPS of great educators. In fact, it brims with them in part due to the wages.

If Odyssey had "the best of the best of Greece credentialed teachers" and those teachers could handle the mantra that is Odyssey... know what? It'd not get an accolade as rated #90 somethin' in the land. I have no doubt it'd be top 10 if not #1.

To Greece Central Office administration that means, "Woo Woo... we get a medal... The golden twinkee" as it is "out of touch" with kids. Decisions made behind desks affecting thousands of students and families. Not in the trenches.

Put another way one could say its amazing Odyssey succeeds given the "system" it has to work within.

As I noted before... I am far from anti-Odyssey. I am however anti a district that makes no effort to recreate the success of Odyssey across the district. Dont care what it takes. Do it. If they cant do it then step aside and let the educators that have built Odyssey with some trial and error take the helm.

If they cant do that then the community should seek private schools built atop Odysseys structure.

I for one would hate to see Odyssey go but "fair is fair". Is it right to deny some finer education when in fact their taxes are paying for "all". No.

Also understand something here. As I said, District loves money. I do not know if Odyssey recieves a larger budget share given demographics than others. But, even if that is the case if their budget were scaled back... They'll still succeed. They do better for many reasons and thats hard work, harder work than many an educator care to do. As I said, Sue Meier is a leader, I recognized it in her when she was in Greece's "small computer" beginnings. In fact, she was more a leader than the people who were her bosses.

Further, she knows how to bring out peoples potential so they too can be leaders. Doesnt mean one might like what she has to say, but she doesnt say it to make the wind move. I dont know what personally drives her inside. That is to say if its a seeing potential unrealized in people that she feels should live, breathe and thrive. Perhaps something else or many things. She is remarkable.

These founders of Odyssey, Liz, Lisa, Sue, Ruth, Dick Bennet, Cel Zarnstorff (Did I mess anyone still there?) have much to be proud of. These educators make a difference every day at "putting a dent in the universe" as Steve Jobs would say.

The question again is why are these clear examples of what it takes for kids to succeed not being mirrored district wide?

Charlie Hubbard said...

It starts with and i'll say it again - if you don't follow the rules at Odyssey - your gone.
And until the other schools have that benefit or WANT that benefit - nothing will change.
Disruptive students are a hugh problem. Having said that until those running those buildings 'speak up' nothing will happen.
I can tell you from experience we have alot of people who talk a good game but lack the b#### to do it. And do you know what the community does with 'those' people - we give them raises.

SCATS said...

To 1:41PM ~~ Thank you for all of your insights. I think you provided a lot of food for thought. Most of your observations ring true from my perspective, though I'm not sure I'd call some of the folks you named "top-notch" as educators. One note, I believe Cel Zarnstorff left Odyssey several years ago. She's among the best in my book.

SCATS said...

To 10:47AM ~~ To answer your question, there are no chickens and there are no eggs. Whoever brought farm animals into this discussion clearly wanted to confuse people about apples and oranges, and apparently it worked.

What does being "smart" have to do with becoming a "Scholar Athlete?"

"Scholar" is synonymous with "pupil." Within GCSD we already know the masses (scholars all!) make honor roll in our high schools even when they can't achieve enough passing scores on a NY State required test to keep their school off the state's watch list.

Anonymous said...

To Charlie Hubbard:

There have always been disruptive children in classrooms. Many things have been tried to deal with such matters all over the country. Segregating them, detention, suspension, parents in, parents out, trying drill down to the roots of why they are, on and on.

When I went to school it was essentially the last place I wanted to be.

To me alot of this particular matter is information strained. In other words the concepts of drilling down to whys/wherefors (which are wide and varied) of students being disruptive, not caring etc. informationally are based within the instance.

In order to get a better understanding IMHO need actually speak with those who were disruptive, failing on and on but are NOW adults.

See... I know many people who when I was in school were in that mode, self included. Once one gets older all of a sudden when looking back one see's the incidents where animosity, anger, on and on were built as well as the results.

Of course, some of what information would come to bare is a "We cant do much about", bad parenting is bad parenting. But other things that happen within the boundaries of the schools we can.

Granted, schools have come along long way since my day as a student. Some kids are get a little off course near beginning and at the end are miles off course. Others it may happen later in their education years.

Perhaps some form of external mentoring system can correct some of this. A "buddy" system within of course the school zone where adults who went through or relate to a childs circumstance can help work through it.

As a visual society we base much on our "inputs" that are fast to process and judge in our brains. Most people dont even realize how often they do this day to day.

I was never a proponent when I was young or for that matter years into adulthood of dress code. But, in hindsight... If every kid had to wear a kilt and we all end up looking silly (by todays fashion standards) then we remove a big part of visual judgement.

If all kids needed come suit/tie, girls business suit... Now we all look like professionals.

The common thought would be kids sacrificing individuality or expression etc. which would have been my arguments as a student. But, it would certainly cut back on a level of the peer judgement issues.

I am in complete agreement with you that alot of our schools and in fact others need get a pair of b####.

To Scats:

As I said, Greece Brims with great educators. But just as our community is rather a placid lot of status quo until they get outraged resulting in pissed off status quo... Our schools are much the same, attempting be reactive more so than "lets step back and look at a big picture".

Educators are in fact serving the public, thus civil service, but tis' not deemed that. Instead its "Professionals" (which indeed they are, so is a town engineer (hopefully!)) but they are not in "business" but administration often treats things "as business" and "as government" (both in respects of to the populous and in government of students/staff).

Anyone see an issue with that?

SCATS said...

To 4:16AM ~~ You brought up the issue of dress codes related to student behavior based on visual inputs. Later, you mentioned teachers as "professionals."

I truly believe how people dress impacts the way they behave and that includes our teachers. When they wear union "solidarity" T-shirts and other unprofessional attire into the classrooms in Greece, it sends a very strong message to the students. If teachers can sport attire (the t-shirts) that evokes an "us versus them" association, I'm pretty sure the students feel it's OK to assume that same attitude towards the teachers and other school employees, whether it's through their attire or other behaviors.

Anonymous said...

Didn't Hubbard purpose a dress code in Greece school several years ago? Where have these people with these "new" ideas been during the last decade?

SCATS said...

To 11:33AM ~~ I can't recall whether it was Hubbard or Oberg who first proposed it. I do recall that it was dispensed with a couple of years ago. Where these people have been? Maybe under the stones Auberger is turning ... as we type ;)

Charlie Hubbard said...

To 11:33
Yes - what we were talking about were school uniforms. Some school administrators were very much in favor of trying it - however - when i made it clear it should be 'they' not 'me' who should bring it to the board it all fell apart.
I still believe it to be a step towards focusing the kids on academics as oppossed dressing 'cool'.

Anonymous said...


Where have the people been?

Welp, lets face it, political/school/activism blogs are not exactly what it takes to draw people into a site.

It would be considered a vertical market here in Crotchester and especially in Grease.

None of these blogs make "big splash"... no offense, but they dont get "how".

SCATS said...

To 4:25PM ~~ The question was asked by the previous poster (previous to my post). They meant why haven't people heard these ideas before when it's been discussed for a number of years at meetings, in the news and even here ;)